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5E [5E] Fighter/Rogue multiclass

Adb0782

Explorer
I'm going to play a campaign with a group kinda overpowered from lv 12. They already picked a paladin6/warlock6 (the most overpowered multiclass after sorcerer/paladin in my opinion), a cleric of life/warlock (probably the best healer I saw in 5e), a streight monk with tatoo rules, a streight wizard (never bad) and a fighter4/hexblade5/paladin2/sorcerer1 that I never tryed but looks kinda powerfull even with not so much hight level slots. So my idea was to optimize an variant human assassin with some utility. I thought to get 9 lv of fighter (battle master) and 3 lv of rogue (assassin). My stats with point buy system should be:

8 str
15 + 1 Dex (20 with 2 asi)
15 + 1con
8 int
10 wis
14 cha

I pick up criminal bg and putted my expertise to stealth and deception. In this way I end with proficiency in 5 tools (if I counted it well) and a 2d6 sneak attack. The idea is to go archery so I picked up crossbow expert and sharpshooter. Next asi I'll get resilient (wis) or alert feat. With 2 attacks per round (3 with crossbow expert) and action surge (so 6 attacks once every short rest if I counted it well, but I'm probably wrong bcs i don't think action surge double also the attack with my bonus action, so it's probably 5 attacks), Can I expect a sufficient output of damage (poisoner kit also allow me to make some poison, probably not the worst one as we r starting kinda hight level, but anyway so many monsters are immune to poison) from this pg for deal with that overpowered builds below?

There is also something I didn't understand well about some rule:
  • the crossbow expert allow me to use my bonus action for an attack only if I use an hand crossbow? If I get it well with the heavy one (or even using a shield) I can't reload bcs i don't have a free hand for it and so i can't shot in my bonus action.
  • when I use a battle maneuver i can add only 1 superiority dice and can't decide to add more even I have more superiority dice isn't it? It's only + 1d8.
  • the assassination ability work only in the surprise round, but if all my party is visible to the enemies while I'm hidden, am i supposed to get a suprise round once I'll attack? I think so but I'm not that sure.

Thanks in advance to everyone will reply.
 
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the Jester

Legend
There is also something I didn't understand well about some rule:
  • the crossbow expert allow me to use my bonus action for an attack only if I use an hand crossbow? If I get it well with the heavy one (or even using a shield) I can't reload bcs i don't have a free hand for it and so i can't shot in my bonus action.
  • when I use a battle maneuver i can add only 1 superiority dice and can't decide to add more even I have more superiority dice isn't it? It's only + 1d8.
  • the assassination ability work only in the surprise round, but if all my party is visible to the enemies while I'm hidden, am i supposed to get a suprise round once I'll attack? I think so but I'm not that sure.

Thanks in advance to everyone will reply.
So to answer your questions:

1. Correct.
2. Correct. But note that your superiority dice increase in value as you advance.
3. Surprise is determined by the DM, so this is impossible for anyone else to answer for sure. Also, there is no "surprise round" in 5e- surprise is very much like a condition. But regardless, at my table, you might indeed get surprise in those circumstances.
 

BacchusNL

Explorer
Assasin subclass for rogue is a bit of a trap, I think, tbh. Not only are suprise rounds very dependant on how generous your GM wants to be it also requires the rest of your party to play along (and not suck at stealth). And looking at the of the rest of your party....they look more like the "So anyway, I started blasting"-types :p

Here's what I would do for a level 12 Archer. I'm going to assume atleast the recent UA's are allowed since you mentioned the tatoos: start with a Wood Elf Ranger 8 str 17 dex 14 con 16 wis 10 int 8 cha (with the class variant UA).
Lvl1: If you want to be a skill monkey take the Canny feature, if you want to be more durable take Tireless. Also take Favored Foe for 3 free hunter's marks that don't require concentration.
Lvl 2: Archery fighting style and spells. Goodberry/ Aid are always solid
Lvl 3: Gloomstalker for all the goodies it brings. Being quasi-greater invisible in darkness is going to pay off big next level. 1 more lvl 1 spell: Fog Cloud and Detect Magic can have utility no matter what level you are.
Lvl 4: Elven Accuracy feat. Bump dex to 18 and have triple advantage on all attacks made from darkness on enemies that dont have truesight/ tremor sense ect. It's way to good.
Lvl 5: Extra Attack and lvl 2 spells. Healing spirit is to good to pass up, pass without a trace/ silence and spike growth can also be good.
Lvl 6-12 Arcane Trickster Rogue. Find Familiar/ Mage Hand/ Message will all make your life tons easier when scouting (avoid spells that use a DC), pick up the Sharpshooter feat @ lvl 9, at level 7 you can pick a level 2 wizard spell of choice (probably misty step) plus the always fantastic mirror image.

When you party hits level 13 you can round out your dex to 20 with your level 8 rogue feat. Crossbow Expert 2 levels later. Or switch those around if you want.

On the first round you can pick an enemy, Hunter's Mark it, Attack 3x, add 1d6 on all attacks and on one of them 1d8 (gloomstalker trait) + 4d6 (sneak attack). You also have triple advantage, which is often active when you are in darkness (or from familiar/ hiding as bonus action) and can use Sharpshooter for +10 damage. You are also a skill monkey with some of the best healing spells in the game (goodberry to get people up with your familiar, healing spirit for healing between encounters) that has all the cantrip/ spell tools needed for scouting aswell.
 

Adb0782

Explorer
So to answer your questions:

1. Correct.
2. Correct. But note that your superiority dice increase in value as you advance.
3. Surprise is determined by the DM, so this is impossible for anyone else to answer for sure. Also, there is no "surprise round" in 5e- surprise is very much like a condition. But regardless, at my table, you might indeed get surprise in those circumstances.
Well my DM allow me to use assassination in those circumstances, I just talked with him. Do you know some other way to get it?
 

Adb0782

Explorer
Assasin subclass for rogue is a bit of a trap, I think, tbh. Not only are suprise rounds very dependant on how generous your GM wants to be it also requires the rest of your party to play along (and not suck at stealth). And looking at the of the rest of your party....they look more like the "So anyway, I started blasting"-types :p

Here's what I would do for a level 12 Archer. I'm going to assume atleast the recent UA's are allowed since you mentioned the tatoos: start with a Wood Elf Ranger 8 str 17 dex 14 con 16 wis 10 int 8 cha (with the class variant UA).
Lvl1: If you want to be a skill monkey take the Canny feature, if you want to be more durable take Tireless. Also take Favored Foe for 3 free hunter's marks that don't require concentration.
Lvl 2: Archery fighting style and spells. Goodberry/ Aid are always solid
Lvl 3: Gloomstalker for all the goodies it brings. Being quasi-greater invisible in darkness is going to pay off big next level. 1 more lvl 1 spell: Fog Cloud and Detect Magic can have utility no matter what level you are.
Lvl 4: Elven Accuracy feat. Bump dex to 18 and have triple advantage on all attacks made from darkness on enemies that dont have truesight/ tremor sense ect. It's way to good.
Lvl 5: Extra Attack and lvl 2 spells. Healing spirit is to good to pass up, pass without a trace/ silence and spike growth can also be good.
Lvl 6-12 Arcane Trickster Rogue. Find Familiar/ Mage Hand/ Message will all make your life tons easier when scouting (avoid spells that use a DC), pick up the Sharpshooter feat @ lvl 9, at level 7 you can pick a level 2 wizard spell of choice (probably misty step) plus the always fantastic mirror image.

When you party hits level 13 you can round out your dex to 20 with your level 8 rogue feat. Crossbow Expert 2 levels later. Or switch those around if you want.

On the first round you can pick an enemy, Hunter's Mark it, Attack 3x, add 1d6 on all attacks and on one of them 1d8 (gloomstalker trait) + 4d6 (sneak attack). You also have triple advantage, which is often active when you are in darkness (or from familiar/ hiding as bonus action) and can use Sharpshooter for +10 damage. You are also a skill monkey with some of the best healing spells in the game (goodberry to get people up with your familiar, healing spirit for healing between encounters) that has all the cantrip/ spell tools needed for scouting aswell.
It's a nice idea but my plan was to use the crossbow expert feat from the beginning. And yes all manuals are allowed, just me don't know so well UA as I still didn't read it. 😅
 

the Jester

Legend
Well my DM allow me to use assassination in those circumstances, I just talked with him. Do you know some other way to get it?
I think the easiest way is for the assassin to scout ahead, hiding; then take his shot and assassinate; then beat feet back to the rest of the group.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
a well played battlemaster or battlemaster/rogue will be one of the most damaging characters in any group.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Assassain subclass is a solid damage boost but don't plan on many surprise rounds. It's the advantage feature that's strong with a SS build. First turn advantage on all your attacks while using -5/+10 from SS with actions surge is amazing!
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Note you can get a bonus action attack if you just use a single hand crossbow - you can even reload it that way.
 

Adb0782

Explorer
Note you can get a bonus action attack if you just use a single hand crossbow - you can even reload it that way.
Is that bonus action attack doubled with action surge? I suppose actually no, as i have only 1 bonus action for turn (and this make also cunning action much less usefull for my Pg I think, but with all that malee Pg in my group should be very easy to get advantage every turn), so with action surge, supposing i hit all my attacks and surprise my enemy i should deal 2d6 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 10 five times. For around 240 hp average. Without crit it's 150 hp average and without crit and action surge I'll still deal 90 hp avarage that looks not that bad. Yea, you convinced me. 😅
 

delph

Explorer
Assasin subclass for rogue is a bit of a trap, I think, tbh. Not only are suprise rounds very dependant on how generous your GM wants to be it also requires the rest of your party to play along (and not suck at stealth). And looking at the of the rest of your party....they look more like the "So anyway, I started blasting"-types :p

Here's what I would do for a level 12 Archer. I'm going to assume atleast the recent UA's are allowed since you mentioned the tatoos: start with a Wood Elf Ranger 8 str 17 dex 14 con 16 wis 10 int 8 cha (with the class variant UA).
Lvl1: If you want to be a skill monkey take the Canny feature, if you want to be more durable take Tireless. Also take Favored Foe for 3 free hunter's marks that don't require concentration.
Lvl 2: Archery fighting style and spells. Goodberry/ Aid are always solid
Lvl 3: Gloomstalker for all the goodies it brings. Being quasi-greater invisible in darkness is going to pay off big next level. 1 more lvl 1 spell: Fog Cloud and Detect Magic can have utility no matter what level you are.
Lvl 4: Elven Accuracy feat. Bump dex to 18 and have triple advantage on all attacks made from darkness on enemies that dont have truesight/ tremor sense ect. It's way to good.
Lvl 5: Extra Attack and lvl 2 spells. Healing spirit is to good to pass up, pass without a trace/ silence and spike growth can also be good.
Lvl 6-12 Arcane Trickster Rogue. Find Familiar/ Mage Hand/ Message will all make your life tons easier when scouting (avoid spells that use a DC), pick up the Sharpshooter feat @ lvl 9, at level 7 you can pick a level 2 wizard spell of choice (probably misty step) plus the always fantastic mirror image.

When you party hits level 13 you can round out your dex to 20 with your level 8 rogue feat. Crossbow Expert 2 levels later. Or switch those around if you want.

On the first round you can pick an enemy, Hunter's Mark it, Attack 3x, add 1d6 on all attacks and on one of them 1d8 (gloomstalker trait) + 4d6 (sneak attack). You also have triple advantage, which is often active when you are in darkness (or from familiar/ hiding as bonus action) and can use Sharpshooter for +10 damage. You are also a skill monkey with some of the best healing spells in the game (goodberry to get people up with your familiar, healing spirit for healing between encounters) that has all the cantrip/ spell tools needed for scouting aswell.
And maybe trade wit 3 lvls with fighter - Battlemaster (many manouvers are working with ranged attacks) or Samurai... And in ranger sublcasses are still one old still good - Hunter. next 1d8 dmg to one attack stacked with hunters mark, or hordebreaker and adding one attack...

and it's same situational as assassinate (IMHO) but maybe still better - 11. lvl feateure of hunters - Volley - you can shoot like machinegun. SS, archery style, (and if you than take 2 lvl fighter for action surge, you are living fireball)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Is that bonus action attack doubled with action surge? I suppose actually no, as i have only 1 bonus action for turn (and this make also cunning action much less usefull for my Pg I think, but with all that malee Pg in my group should be very easy to get advantage every turn), so with action surge, supposing i hit all my attacks and surprise my enemy i should deal 2d6 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 5 + 10 five times. For around 240 hp average. Without crit it's 150 hp average and without crit and action surge I'll still deal 90 hp avarage that looks not that bad. Yea, you convinced me. 😅
Make sure to take precision attack. When you know you missed but it's close it's one of the most damaging maneuvers in the game and very fitting for an archer/assassain.
 

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