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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
5e: Is it really lower magic/less gonzo than 3e?
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<blockquote data-quote="Lancelot" data-source="post: 7443380" data-attributes="member: 30022"><p>1. No. Vanilla 5e is a vastly easier to play than 3e, but it is not much more grounded. You still have <em>teleports </em>and <em>wishes</em> and <em>vorpal swords</em> and demon lords. There are four areas that I can think of where you might consider it to be more grounded... </p><p></p><p>Firstly, creature summoning is less of a thing. In 3e, you could swarm the battlefield with summoned beasts. This made combat slower and more complex, and also hurt the balance for non-casters. I recall playing one campaign where my fairly optimized 5th level fighter was completely superfluous compared to the druid's summoned dire wolves. In 5e, summonings generally aren't "in combat" options due to casting times (1 minute or more), plus the spell can be terminated by breaking the caster's concentration, plus they can only maintain concentration on one spell at a time. For some, this might make 5e seem a little more "grounded".</p><p></p><p>Secondly, 3e's system of massive pre-combat buffs is largely gone... again, due to the concentration mechanic. Fewer characters (and bad guys) go into battle with 5+ spells already active. I'm not saying it's impossible with 5e, because some durational buffs aren't bound by concentration (e.g. <em>mage armor, spiritual weapon</em>). But it's far less common.</p><p></p><p>Thirdly, magic items expectations are much lower. You can play legitimate 5e with not even a <em>+1 longsword</em> at 10th level, and the game works. This is not true in 3e, where the numbers simply break without the expectations of gear. If you look at Paizo Dungeon issues in the 3e era, you see guardposts with 4 bugbears... each of whom is carrying <em>+1 morning stars</em>, <em>+1 studded leather</em> and <em>potions of cure moderate</em>. High level NPCs always carried stat-buffing items, because it's simply expected. So... 5e is more grounded, perhaps, because the entire economy doesn't rely on mass-production of magic items?</p><p></p><p>Finally, due to 5e's much slower release cycle, the game hasn't yet been corrupted by power creep. During the 3e days, the massive amount of new material released meant that inevitably there would be new spells or items or feats or class combos that were simply "better". It rewarded system experts, who could build combos that left your typical PH-only player in the dust. That, in itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. Power gaming is fine if everyone is having fun. But it made life difficult for new players joining groups (who feel the lack of balance), and it was also pretty nightmarish to me as a DM where I have to stay one step ahead of all the players (and their thousands of potentially aberrant builds) to provide an adequately balanced and challenging adventure.</p><p></p><p>2. Yes, 5e preserves the high fantasy power level of previous games. You can summon a demon and set it to slay your enemies. You can <em>teleport</em> your entire party to another plane of existence. You can raise the dead. It's less complex than 3e, by far, but characters still feel powerful. Importantly, it reduces the gap between casters and non-casters. A non-caster in 3e was ridiculously inferior to a caster at high levels. It's less bad in 5e, although an experienced player will always find ways to make a caster shine more than a non-caster (regardless of version).</p><p></p><p>3. No, 3e does not in any way exceed the power levels of 3e... with one possible exception. There has been no attempt to provide statistics for gods in 5e yet, unlike <em>every previous version</em>. This <em>might</em> imply that 5e gods are too powerful for mortals to fight... which <em>might</em> suggest that the 5e gods have received a power boost. Or, more likely, it suggests that 5e has reduced the power levels of the characters. They're no longer capable of meleeing Thor to death and sticking <em>mjolnir</em> on their trophy wall.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lancelot, post: 7443380, member: 30022"] 1. No. Vanilla 5e is a vastly easier to play than 3e, but it is not much more grounded. You still have [I]teleports [/I]and [I]wishes[/I] and [I]vorpal swords[/I] and demon lords. There are four areas that I can think of where you might consider it to be more grounded... Firstly, creature summoning is less of a thing. In 3e, you could swarm the battlefield with summoned beasts. This made combat slower and more complex, and also hurt the balance for non-casters. I recall playing one campaign where my fairly optimized 5th level fighter was completely superfluous compared to the druid's summoned dire wolves. In 5e, summonings generally aren't "in combat" options due to casting times (1 minute or more), plus the spell can be terminated by breaking the caster's concentration, plus they can only maintain concentration on one spell at a time. For some, this might make 5e seem a little more "grounded". Secondly, 3e's system of massive pre-combat buffs is largely gone... again, due to the concentration mechanic. Fewer characters (and bad guys) go into battle with 5+ spells already active. I'm not saying it's impossible with 5e, because some durational buffs aren't bound by concentration (e.g. [I]mage armor, spiritual weapon[/I]). But it's far less common. Thirdly, magic items expectations are much lower. You can play legitimate 5e with not even a [I]+1 longsword[/I] at 10th level, and the game works. This is not true in 3e, where the numbers simply break without the expectations of gear. If you look at Paizo Dungeon issues in the 3e era, you see guardposts with 4 bugbears... each of whom is carrying [I]+1 morning stars[/I], [I]+1 studded leather[/I] and [I]potions of cure moderate[/I]. High level NPCs always carried stat-buffing items, because it's simply expected. So... 5e is more grounded, perhaps, because the entire economy doesn't rely on mass-production of magic items? Finally, due to 5e's much slower release cycle, the game hasn't yet been corrupted by power creep. During the 3e days, the massive amount of new material released meant that inevitably there would be new spells or items or feats or class combos that were simply "better". It rewarded system experts, who could build combos that left your typical PH-only player in the dust. That, in itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. Power gaming is fine if everyone is having fun. But it made life difficult for new players joining groups (who feel the lack of balance), and it was also pretty nightmarish to me as a DM where I have to stay one step ahead of all the players (and their thousands of potentially aberrant builds) to provide an adequately balanced and challenging adventure. 2. Yes, 5e preserves the high fantasy power level of previous games. You can summon a demon and set it to slay your enemies. You can [I]teleport[/I] your entire party to another plane of existence. You can raise the dead. It's less complex than 3e, by far, but characters still feel powerful. Importantly, it reduces the gap between casters and non-casters. A non-caster in 3e was ridiculously inferior to a caster at high levels. It's less bad in 5e, although an experienced player will always find ways to make a caster shine more than a non-caster (regardless of version). 3. No, 3e does not in any way exceed the power levels of 3e... with one possible exception. There has been no attempt to provide statistics for gods in 5e yet, unlike [I]every previous version[/I]. This [I]might[/I] imply that 5e gods are too powerful for mortals to fight... which [I]might[/I] suggest that the 5e gods have received a power boost. Or, more likely, it suggests that 5e has reduced the power levels of the characters. They're no longer capable of meleeing Thor to death and sticking [I]mjolnir[/I] on their trophy wall. [/QUOTE]
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