[5e] Spell & Crossbones

[MENTION=6777934]Maldavos[/MENTION] Thank you! A fun repartee for me too! I've said it before, but I feel lucky that such a great group of players and writers assembled randomly here on ENWorld. I look forward to more of your (and Hugo's) wit :)

EDIT: I just about finished the monster & NPC write ups for the game, got the major antagonists done, even got Moby Dick (Giant Whale) in there. Good stuff!
 
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Ah, martial weapons. I almost suggested as much, but I was half-expecting that change to creep in eventually. Lo and behold. :D I'd still probably want to adjust my domain spells as I level up if that's okay, to be less overtly offensive. Subversion tactics, that's the rub.

In terms of crafting items like bone needles and voodoo dolls and other things of that nature, would Caillou be able to craft those things on his own? Should I be reserving a proficiency slot for that, in that case?

With my shiny new martial weapons proficiency, I think I'd like to pick up a whip (taken from a slaver) and a net. I'll adjust my character sheet accordingly.
 

[MENTION=6781406]Unsung[/MENTION] FYI, I hope I answered your question comprehensively in the other thread :)

Yes, I'm totally fine with you adjusting your domain spells.

I'm still figuring out how to represent voodoo dolls and other minor magic items, but making it a tool proficiency seems reasonable. Let's see...there are a variety of magic items unique to voodoo...drogues (minor charms that grant save advantage against specific things for a particular user), Gris-Gris bags (which I think would be interpreted as an arcane focus / holy symbol / Druidic focus in 5e), garde (equivalent of voodoo scrolls), potions, and voodoo dolls.

I get my DMG tomorrow and then I'll better know how magic item crafting works.

For voodoo dolls, my inclination is to make assembling one a quest in itself, so a voodoo doll require 3 components from the target (something from the dead, something from the head, and something from the thread ;) ). Once assembled, the voodoo doll might allow attacks/spells used against it to damage/effect the target...not sure what the range would be yet.

Just my rough thoughts. I can't recall any examples of voodoo dolls in existing D&D supplements, so we may just need to use out best judgment making it up!
 

...and something from the body. (Hey, that almost rhymed!)

Interesting, interesting. I ordered the DMG on Amazon, so it should arrive in the next week-ish.

Extreme long range with no line of sight required, longer casting times and more robust ritual rules... I'd be interested in pursuing that concept. Non-Vancian casting, tighter limits on spells cast but more powerful effects. Have you ever looked at the rules for Dungeon World? In particular, I'm thinking of the Wizard's Ritual move and the Paladin's Quest move. Those are perhaps a little loose for D&D, but I think they could provide a starting point for possibly quite a fruitful...something.
 

...and something from the body. (Hey, that almost rhymed!)

Interesting, interesting. I ordered the DMG on Amazon, so it should arrive in the next week-ish.
Heh. Gotta love Monkey Island :) I'm looking forward to sitting down one rainy night this week with a mug of tea and pouring over the DMG.

Extreme long range with no line of sight required, longer casting times and more robust ritual rules... I'd be interested in pursuing that concept. Non-Vancian casting, tighter limits on spells cast but more powerful effects. Have you ever looked at the rules for Dungeon World? In particular, I'm thinking of the Wizard's Ritual move and the Paladin's Quest move. Those are perhaps a little loose for D&D, but I think they could provide a starting point for possibly quite a fruitful...something.
Yeah, something like that. I am only passingly familiar with DW, but I did check out the online SRD and read those two moves you referred to. Actually "something from the head, something from the dead, and something from the...body" is pretty much spot on for the Wizard's Ritual. If you read the Voodoo Rituals fortune I wrote up, it's a step in the direction of looser magic at a cost.

The main thing I need to figure out with Voodoo Dolls is how does one defend against them? Introducing extreme long range magic has implications for the setting coherence, so there needs to be a reason Voodounistas aren't just killing off colonial governors left and right, for example. I mean, acquiring the components to make the voodoo doll is a challenge, but then to allow any spell to be cast at will upon the target is BRUTAL, the doll effectively becoming an incapacitated version of the target that you can abuse as you like.

So there needs to be some sort of checks & balances to prevent the doll from being over-powered. Not sure what exactly, but it is something we can brainstorm on.
 

My sense is that 'real' voodoo dolls aren't used that way because the magic comes at a cost. It's not just a question of getting the sympathetic ties in place (via body parts/associated items/etc), but that using magic to hurl curses and pain at someone has consequences for the caster.

Of course, magic in D&D has never been portrayed as having that limitation. Here's my take on it, fluffwise.

When you cast a spell and throw a fireball or curse at someone, you're basically using a tool. It's no worse (or better) than grabbing a sword and sticking it into someone's heart. The consequences for the act are no more (or less) than the act itself, plus whatever costs the spell itself exacts.

When you use a voodoo doll, or something similar, you aren't just casting a spell. You are summoning a spirit or minor loa, casting a spell and giving it to the loa, who then follows the sympathetic tie of the doll and delivers it to the target. You're incurring a debt. You now owe that spirit. And that spirit knows what you did. You can incur judgement in this way, from otherworldly beings. You're involving other creatures in your business. And it may be that the loa needed to carry a higher level spell isn't so 'minor.' And the creatures who are willing to carry curses around aren't nice creatures. And once you get them to START, they may not want to STOP. And you don't give them curses, maybe someone else will.

So once you're on the path of sending pain at a distance, it tends to form a downward spiral, where good spirits condemn and withdraw from you...and all you have left is spirits of madness and pain, and they'll only serve you while you're dispensing madness and pain. And if you stop...then all eyes are on you. If you're riding that tiger, do you dare let go?

This is not to say good or neutral casters can never use these items. It's just to say that when you use them, you're taking risks and opening yourself to the kind of scrutiny normally only clerics are under. When you send a curse to the governor of Nassau, you can't just make a die roll and decide if he lives or dies. Someone else is involved. You have to ask, "Who is carrying this spell? What does it think of this? What's it going to tell its buddies?" If the governor is really asking for it, maybe a decent spirit would be okay with it...such a curse might fall in line with the natural order of karma; the cosmos striking back against the evil he's done. But it's not a guarantee. Sometimes good loa won't do such things no matter what...for reasons mortals can't easily ken. The spirit world is not our world, and has rules we know nothing about.

So to put it another way; the use of narrative weapons like voodoo dolls opens you to narrative consequences that are in many ways subject to the GM's whims and the demands of the story. :)

Oh, and yes. There's countermeasures. I'm sure any competent practitioner can cast a spell/bargain with an entity to gain protection. At minimum, a Protection from Alignment would generally work...MOST curse-carrying is done by evil critter (or if you're evil, by good critters). Longer lasting protection can be had as well via more powerful spells and/or rituals.
 
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[MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] "Power at a price" certainly represents the red (harmful) magic of voodoo well, and also makes attacking via a voodoo doll an interesting choice. The idea of sympathetic magic being "delivered" by a spirit is interesting...the doll is then a conduit making it possible, but when, say, Caillou uses a bone needle on a doll of Baron de Pointis, it's not the bone needle or Caillou causing the harm, rather it's the djab, loa, or other spirit.

So, our emerging voodoo doll rules look something like this so far...

  1. Assemble something of the dead, the thread, and the body. Basically, 3 components of sympathetic magic with potent connection to the target.
  2. Craft the actual doll and imbue it with power. This is where we may use the magic item crafting rules from the DMG...or perhaps require a tool proficiency and 10 to 50 gp be spent (much like an herbalism kit & antitoxin or healing potion).
  3. Cast a spell or perform some action on the doll.
  4. Determine which spirit is delivering the magic based on the caster's current spirit relations, the nature of the spell/action performed, and the nature (ideals, alignments, motives, past offenses) of both caster and target. The DM and player can determine this together.
  5. The DM determines some price the spirit requires after the spell/action is delivered. This price may be a burden or taboo imposed on the caster, a required quest, a haunting, a twisting of the caster's intent, etc. If the price is something the caster must do, then it must be fulfilled before using the voodoo doll again.
 

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