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5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her
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<blockquote data-quote="ThirdWizard" data-source="post: 5855462" data-attributes="member: 12037"><p>Planescape really requires a different mindset than a more "typical" D&D setting.</p><p></p><p>The Planescape setting is largely undefined. If you read through some of the setting material, one of the things that stands out about NPCs, locations, organizations, etc. is that much of the details are left to the DM to define. The text often talks about what is believed or what is rumored. It is up to the DM to fill in these blanks. This is an important aspect of the setting, and it is part of what keeps the planes mysterious and dangerous. And, this ambiguity extends to the Lady of Pain.</p><p></p><p>You see, one of the biggest draws of Planescape is exploration. The players want to find out what's out there, not just their PCs. If it was defined in a book somewhere, then they would know what was out there, and the draw of exploration wouldn't have the same power. Reading a passage from a book as a player makes you want to go there in game. Reading the same passage as a DM gives all kind of inspiration about what could be out there. The same goes for NPCs. Who are they? What is their motivation? A player wants to meet them (or avoid them!) while a DM wants to mold them to his own devices and use them.</p><p></p><p>I'll give an example that wraps around back to the Lady of Pain. This is the ultra short version. The campaign lasted 15 or so years.</p><p></p><p>My most successful Planescape game revolved around a brief description of a monster called gautier found in one of the monstrous compendiums. It talked about an ancient temple located somewhere in the Outlands long lost, where they had trapped their god. I took this and made a campaign where they were an ancient race that existed during the shaping of the Multiverse. Their temple was torn asunder onto every plane of existence, and the players one by one explored them all, opening the way to the lost temple. That temple was the Spire. And, Sigil and the Lady were the dream of the gautier diety/old one/thing, long imprisoned and sleeping. In the end, the Multiverse was shattered and the heroes lost, or perhaps made into gods themselves.</p><p></p><p>The draw, the power, of Planescape is taking those ambiguous lines and learning about them in game, the only place where they can be made to exist. The Lady of Pain is ambiguous not because of any of those reasons you list in the OP. There's no one upmanship, no adolescent control that the the designers were trying to pull off. It's the total opposite. Planescape is about freedom. Freedom of the DM, freedom of the players. Any attempt to stat out the Lady of Pain, or even attempt to define what she is in the text, would be antithetical to the setting. It would go against everything good about Planescape. </p><p></p><p>And on that note, Planescape is not about combat. Sure, combat happens. It's D&D. But, Planescape is about the battle of beliefs just as much as the battle of physical or magical power. The real power attained in a Planescape campaign is often knowledge, political capital, and reputation. Work your way up the Faction ladders, take control as the power behind the throne, learn portal networks, discover the secrets others' want to keep the most hidden from you, and convince others to follow your truth as you tell it. Then you achieve real power in Planescape.</p><p></p><p>A good portion of the books were trying to describe these things while pulling those playing in the setting away from the kick in the door, kill 'em all, style of play that you can get from myriads of other settings. It would be counter-productive to in one breath talk about how Planescape is different and not about combat, then to stat up a being of power who the PCs were never really supposed to fight anyway. That would be a terrible mixed message to give, and so there are no stats for deities, and there are no stats for the Lady of Pain.</p><p></p><p>So, basically, I hope I've explained a few things about what Planescape was about and why these decisions were made. If you don't like it, that's fine, but immaterial. If you don't like the fact that the Lady of Pain isn't killable, then you can kill her in your game. But, she must <em>never</em> be statted up in any official source. And, I hope you now realize why that is.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ThirdWizard, post: 5855462, member: 12037"] Planescape really requires a different mindset than a more "typical" D&D setting. The Planescape setting is largely undefined. If you read through some of the setting material, one of the things that stands out about NPCs, locations, organizations, etc. is that much of the details are left to the DM to define. The text often talks about what is believed or what is rumored. It is up to the DM to fill in these blanks. This is an important aspect of the setting, and it is part of what keeps the planes mysterious and dangerous. And, this ambiguity extends to the Lady of Pain. You see, one of the biggest draws of Planescape is exploration. The players want to find out what's out there, not just their PCs. If it was defined in a book somewhere, then they would know what was out there, and the draw of exploration wouldn't have the same power. Reading a passage from a book as a player makes you want to go there in game. Reading the same passage as a DM gives all kind of inspiration about what could be out there. The same goes for NPCs. Who are they? What is their motivation? A player wants to meet them (or avoid them!) while a DM wants to mold them to his own devices and use them. I'll give an example that wraps around back to the Lady of Pain. This is the ultra short version. The campaign lasted 15 or so years. My most successful Planescape game revolved around a brief description of a monster called gautier found in one of the monstrous compendiums. It talked about an ancient temple located somewhere in the Outlands long lost, where they had trapped their god. I took this and made a campaign where they were an ancient race that existed during the shaping of the Multiverse. Their temple was torn asunder onto every plane of existence, and the players one by one explored them all, opening the way to the lost temple. That temple was the Spire. And, Sigil and the Lady were the dream of the gautier diety/old one/thing, long imprisoned and sleeping. In the end, the Multiverse was shattered and the heroes lost, or perhaps made into gods themselves. The draw, the power, of Planescape is taking those ambiguous lines and learning about them in game, the only place where they can be made to exist. The Lady of Pain is ambiguous not because of any of those reasons you list in the OP. There's no one upmanship, no adolescent control that the the designers were trying to pull off. It's the total opposite. Planescape is about freedom. Freedom of the DM, freedom of the players. Any attempt to stat out the Lady of Pain, or even attempt to define what she is in the text, would be antithetical to the setting. It would go against everything good about Planescape. And on that note, Planescape is not about combat. Sure, combat happens. It's D&D. But, Planescape is about the battle of beliefs just as much as the battle of physical or magical power. The real power attained in a Planescape campaign is often knowledge, political capital, and reputation. Work your way up the Faction ladders, take control as the power behind the throne, learn portal networks, discover the secrets others' want to keep the most hidden from you, and convince others to follow your truth as you tell it. Then you achieve real power in Planescape. A good portion of the books were trying to describe these things while pulling those playing in the setting away from the kick in the door, kill 'em all, style of play that you can get from myriads of other settings. It would be counter-productive to in one breath talk about how Planescape is different and not about combat, then to stat up a being of power who the PCs were never really supposed to fight anyway. That would be a terrible mixed message to give, and so there are no stats for deities, and there are no stats for the Lady of Pain. So, basically, I hope I've explained a few things about what Planescape was about and why these decisions were made. If you don't like it, that's fine, but immaterial. If you don't like the fact that the Lady of Pain isn't killable, then you can kill her in your game. But, she must [I]never[/I] be statted up in any official source. And, I hope you now realize why that is. [/QUOTE]
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