5E 5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her

D&D ought to be a game of gonzo heroism. Isn't it unmanly that we're told that the Lady of Pain is an unknowable, unstattable, unkillable character?

It seems to me this situation:

1) Stokes the one-upmanship of the designers of the Planescape setting, so they can say "my overgod is better than all the gods of the D&D worlds"
2) Sets an "edgy" postmodern grey nihilism at the center of the 2e multiverse. Luckily Sigil got split off as its own right-sized astral dominion in 4e.
3) Reminds us that we're just fanboys who should bow and scrape to the published settings.

Immortal-level PCs ought to be able to eventually supplant any god, demon, pantheon, and overgod in every D&D world. And eventually rule any and all planets, planes, and multiverses as their personal dominion.

I was raised on Mystara, where we had official rules for becoming an Overgod:

Step 1: advance to 36th level
Step 2: ascend to Immortality
Step 3: advance to 36th level in the Immortal Class (total character level = 72)
Step 4: renounce Immortality and be reborn as a 1st-level mortal character
Step 5: repeat steps 1, 2, and 3, having adventured through 144 character levels.
Step 6: voila! my character becomes an Old One.

So. For 5e I'll be looking for stats for the Lady of Pain, the Dark Powers of Ravenloft, the Old Ones of the Mystara Multiverse, the High God of Krynn, and Lord Ao.

When our adventuring party reaches 144th level, we'll be knockin on their door.

Is anyone with me?
 
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Recidivism

Villager
I actually discovered the stats to the Lady of Pain scribbled in to an ancient Planescape boxed set that I found in an abandoned attic. I would be willing to transcribe this information for you for a small fee, so you can achieve elder-godhood.
 
So far, three of my fellow adventurers have declined to join me in the quest to overthrow the Dame of Discomfort.

Luckily, I've been offered some friendly advice from two worthy loremasters.

Shall I be left to bask alone in the glory of subduing the Wench of Woe? Or are there any manly yeoman who will share in my dominion of Sigil?
 
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So. For 5e I'll be looking for stats for the Lady of Pain, the Darklords of Ravenloft, the Old Ones of the Mystara Multiverse, the High God of Krynn, and Lord Ao.
Dude why stop there? I want stats for the freaking *Dungeon Master* :]

1) Stokes the one-upmanship of the designers of the Planescape setting, so they can say "my overgod is better than all the gods of the D&D worlds"
2) Sets an "edgy" postmodern grey nihilism at the center of the 2e multiverse. Luckily Sigil got split off as its own right-sized astral dominion in 4e.
3) Reminds us that we're just fanboys who should bow and scrape to the published settings.
Gosh, tell us how you really feel!

I was raised on Mystara, where we had official rules for becoming an Overgod:
Hah, Basics has you beat 5 ways sucka. Time, Matter, Energy, Thought, and Entropy. B-) Oh and you take -5 to your Petition Response for being haughty.:devil:

+10 if you bring pizza and beer. :angel: Because those are the keys to a DM's heart.
 
At least within the BECMI "rules universe", it seems that the Old One character class--like the Immortal class--would have 36 character levels: 36 mortal levels, 36 Immortal levels, and 36 Old One levels, for a total of 108 levels.

In the Second Edition Reality, with its divine ranks, the Overdeities are Divine Rank 21+. It probably extends up to Divine Rank 40, just like mortals extend up to 40 levels in Player's Option: Skills & Powers.

In the Fourth Edition Reality, the overgods are probably level 41 to 50, since the lesser and greater gods are squeezed into levels 30 to 40.

So even if the Lady of Pain is an especially powerful overdeity, she's only so powerful.

Same goes for those other guys and DM.
 

ArmoredSaint

Villager
The only way I would ever, ever take part in a Planescape game is with a killable Lady of Pain. The presence of that character utterly ruins that setting for me.
 

Tom Servo

Villager
The only way I would ever, ever take part in a Planescape game is with a killable Lady of Pain. The presence of that character utterly ruins that setting for me.
In your home game you could always just be rid of her altogether if it is such a big deal. Perhaps replaced by the Maiden of Mild Discomfort?
 
Some things should be impossible, even in a world of magic. Time flows one direction, though you can jump back in time. Light travels faster than anything else in a linear path, though you can teleport to bypass space. And the Lady of Pain is unassailable, though you can become the most powerful entity in reality without provoking her ire.

I get that some people need to climb Everest "because it's there." But saying you want to kill the Lady of Pain is like saying "I want to climb the color lavender." It's not a concept that makes sense.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
She can keep gods out of Sigil, and kill them with a single thought there. She can maze anyone instantly. Her shadow flays the flesh from your bones, but she can also flay you by simply willing it. All that suggest amazing initiative and hitting power. Her motives or plans can not be pierced or discerned, so she pretty much has perfect bluff and an always active mind blank which can't be dispelled. She controls all entrances to Sigil by merely thinking it. She doesn't want anyone worshipping her, which might suggest a weakness, or just that she simply hates it. So far the biggest things considered to have threatened her have been the attempts to take control of the portals away from her (Aoskar), completely open The Cage (Ravel), or reshape all reality (Vecna). They failed, which suggest the scale of things you'd have to do to have any sort of chance of success. And at that point you wouldn't just be fighting her, but also other powers who would wish to see you fail. etc.

And you're just assuming she's a god. The real power might come from Sigil itself and she only controls it. She might be Sigil's slave. She might be a front for a league of gods. She might be the force of the multiverse personified. She might a god level avatar of someone or something unimaginably more powerful. She might be a level one commoner who just found some amazing blade shaped artifacts. She might be the DM. She might be Pain, the way there is an antropomorphized Death.

And I used to think that she should be statted out. But then it occurred to me that if you give her stats she'll just be another boring opponent there for the characters to defeat. Giving her stats gives leeway to the players. Having her be a mystery gives the DM a lot more leeway in how to play her, and make it his campaign.
 

Fanaelialae

Adventurer
I think a middle ground would be the best approach. Don't stat up deities, but offer ideas and suggestions to help DMs stat up their own versions. This is for several reasons.

First, it gives the DM the freedom to decide whether mortals are capable of directly threatening deities at all. God slaying might be unsuitable for some campaigns. Even if a DM decides that gods can be killed, it should be up to the DM how powerful (what level) they are. Some DMs might like the idea that 10th level characters can challenge a god, while others might prefer for it be unfeasible before level 30 (or whatever).

Secondly, beings at that level of power ought to be at least a little mysterious. They're not like dragons, in that every high-level adventurer probably has a dragon slaying story. If the stats are in a book somewhere, some players will read them, and at that point they become less deities and more high level monsters.

Lastly, fighting deities should always be a challenge. This plays a bit into my second point. If the players know a god's stats, they can be much better prepared. Even if they don't mean to metagame, they might. For example, they might opt against getting armor that protects against lightening if they know that Thor ignores lightening resistance, which they might not have done if they hadn't known his stats. If the DM home brews the stats, the players never really know what to expect. They can attempt research, but they're limited to what the DM is willing to share, rather than what they can find in the Monster Manual (or Deities and Demigods).

Moreover, a stat block in a book is not designed with your particular party in mind. Even an incredibly dangerous foe can be potentially nullified with the right combo. As such, deity stats should be unique to the campaign (and therefore the party). No designer will ever know a DM's party as well as that DM, himself. As such, it should be up to the DM to put together such a challenging foe. I don't think that a DM should constantly have to custom-design every encounter for his party, but I do think that deities are a special case and deserve the extra attention.

With all that said, I think it's likelier than not that we'll see stats for deities. That's been the case in every edition thus far. Nonetheless, I think it would be counterproductive giving stats to every deity. Let's face it, very few groups are ever going to fight Thor, Ao, or The Lady of Pain. It's a waste of pages for most people. As such, I hope they keep the deity stat blocks to a minimum, and focus on excellent descriptions of those beings and good advice for creating the stat blocks yourself.
 
The only way I would ever, ever take part in a Planescape game is with a killable Lady of Pain.
Yes!

I have one comrade in the Quest to oust the Princess of Pang.


Now, do I have any takers for downsizing the other overgrown godlings? Does anyone besides me harbor any grudges against:
  • Lord Ao? "Ow" is right, when he sees us knocking on his door.
  • The Dark Powers of the Demiplane of Dread? What level Cleric will we need in our party to turn these guys and drive them out?
  • The High God of Krynn? The higher they are, the farther they fall.
  • The Old One who appears in Mystara's Wrath of the Immortals? When we crash the Vortex, we'll call it Ruth of the Old Ones.
  • The Dungeon Master of the Realm of D&D Kids? I can hardly wait to see the look on his face when we give him an annoying riddle and send him, his son Venger, and Uni on some inane adventure.
As a D&D customer, I am blithely expecting 5e to support these Quests. I'm looking for maps of their homeland and their house. Isn't the customer always right?
 
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jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
[*]The Darklords of the Demiplane of Dread? What level Cleric will we need to turn all of these guys?
How do you know they aren't high level clerics themselves? ;)

[*]The High God of Krynn? The higher they are, the farther they fall.
This one I don't really get, because why? He doesn't do anything. He doesn't seem to object to much anything. He doesn't seem to oppose anything, except maybe possibly a little Chaos. He's not a proper opponent.
 

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