5E - Thoul

Iosue

Community Supporter
With my DMG, I tried my hand at creating a Basic D&D Thoul for 5e. What do you think? I was rather surprised at how closely I was able to mimic the Basic version. It's got the same AC, and does roughly the same damage. The HP are much higher, scaling with 5e damage. The CR of 1 works out nicely, since Thouls in Basic are Level 3 or 4 monsters with a number appearing of 1-6. In 5e, the average (3 thouls) would be a Hard to Deadly encounter for a 3rd Level party of 4, and a Medium to Hard encounter for a 4th level party of 4. That feels about right.

Thoul
Medium monstrosity, lawful evil

Armor Class 13
Hit Points 71 (13d8 + 13)
Speed 30 ft.


STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA
13 (+1)
12 (+1)
12 (+1)
10 (+0)
10 (+0)
9 (-1)

Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10
Languages Common, Goblin
Challenge 1 (200 XP)


Regeneration. The thoul regains 3 hit points at the start of its turn. The thoul dies if it starts its turn with 0 hit points.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The thoul makes two attacks, either once with its longsword and once with its claws, or twice with its claws.

Longsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.

Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 3 (1d4 + 1) slashing damage. If the target is a creature other than an elf or undead, it must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be paralyzed for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

A thoul is a magical combination of a ghoul, a hobgoblin, and a troll. Except when very close, thouls look exactly like hobgoblins, and they are sometimes found as part of the bodyguard of a hobgoblin king.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
Should the regeneration not work if the thoul takes fire or radiant damage the previous round?
 
I know 71 HP is on par with what the DMG says, but ghouls are CR 1 and only 22 hp. I think 71 + regen is WAAAAYYY too much. Honestly, you could cut its HP in half and it'd be more in line with a real CR 1 in the MM.
 

Quartz

Adventurer
The basic Thoul didn't have those restrictions to regeneration.
So? In 4E, the troll had regeneration blocked by fire and if undead had regeneration it was typically blocked by radiant damage.

And yes, I agree that 13 HD and 71 HP is far too much for CR 1.
 

fjw70

Explorer
So? In 4E, the troll had regeneration blocked by fire and if undead had regeneration it was typically blocked by radiant damage.
In Basic fire and acid blocked troll regeneration but not thoul regeneration. So my suggestion had the goal of more closely mirroring the Basic thoul.
 

Iosue

Community Supporter
So? In 4E, the troll had regeneration blocked by fire and if undead had regeneration it was typically blocked by radiant damage.
As it did in Basic, too (well, except for the radiant damage, of which there was none). But the basic Thoul does not have these limitations, so neither does this version. It should be noted that, like in Basic, this is a much weaker form of regeneration than the troll's. In Basic (and in 5e), a troll with 0 hit points will regenerate and revive unless killed with fire. Basic Thouls had no such ability -- once they were at 0, they didn't regenerate. Thus, the same here.

(BTW, what does 4e have to do with this?)

And yes, I agree that 13 HD and 71 HP is far too much for CR 1.
I know 71 HP is on par with what the DMG says, but ghouls are CR 1 and only 22 hp. I think 71 + regen is WAAAAYYY too much. Honestly, you could cut its HP in half and it'd be more in line with a real CR 1 in the MM.
Thouls have more HD than ghouls in Basic, too, so that works for me. Plus the thoul is a weaker hitter than the ghoul. The ghoul's bite alone does average damage of 9. Even if the thoul hits with a longsword and claw multiattack, they only average 8. A single claw attack from a ghoul does an average of 7 damage. A hit with both claws of the thoul only do 6.

IMO, a thoul should be scarier than a ghoul. They have paralyzing claws, can't be Turned, and have a crapload of hit points which they also regenerate. Even so, it's low AC and weak damage make a single thoul an easy challenge to a 1st level party. A group of 3 thouls, OTOH, would be too relentless for a 1st level party, and decent challenge to a 3rd or 4th level party. This maps well with their position on the power curve in Basic. So IMO this is the design working as intended.

Of course, this is completely unplaytested though! So if anyone ends up using a thoul or three in their 5e campaign, I'd be very happy to hear how it goes!
 

Wolf118

Explorer
If you compare the Ghoul's stats to the MONSTER STATISTICS BY CHALLENGE RATING table on p274 of the DMG, it has an offensive CR of 1 (based on 9 damage/round for the bite) and defensive CR of 1/8 (based on 22 HP). However, the damage and condition immunities (poison, charmed, exhaustion, poisoned) give the ghoul an effective HP of 44 (DMG, p277), which is a defensive CR of 1/4. So the average CR is 0.625, which is rounded to the nearest CR of 1/2. According the DMG then, the ghoul CR is incorrect.

The Ghast has an offensive CR of 1 (based on 12 damage/round for the bite), and a defensive CR of 1/4 (based on 36 HP). However, the damage resistance, immunities, and condition immunities bump the HP to 72, which is a defensive CR of 1. Stench gives +1 to effective AC (DMG, pp280-281), but this isn't a factor since CR 1 assumes AC 13, and there needs to be a difference of 2+ points to change the CR. Turning Defiance doesn't affect CR, so the Ghast should be CR 1, according to the DMG.

So the Ghoul and Ghast seem to be underpowered.

By contrast, the Thoul above has an offensive CR of 1/2 (based on 6-8 damage/round) and a defensive CR of 1 (based on 71 HP). Regen give 3xHP gained (+9) for an effective HP of 80, which is still CR 1. That gives an average CR of 0.75, which is rounded to 1.

I'd say the Thoul is built correctly. And I will be using him in my campaign. Nice conversion, Iosue.
 

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