D&D General 6E But A + Thread

it wasn’t a bad idea then and it isn’t a bad idea now.

I have my issues with the execution of that idea (to me the playtest as conducted is flawed, but gives WotC an idea of what is really unpopular regardless - and I suspect that this is all they really want from it in the first place, or they would have a better test).

It also doesn’t mean that everyone will like the end result, it should however mean (assuming the test actually works reasonably well) that a large part of your audience likes it well enough to not drop it for having missed the mark
Okay. My problem is that I dispute that reasoning. It can still mean that people end up dropping it for having missed the mark.

Because the problem is that popular positive response isn't a conserved quantity. I have, personally, witnessed more than enough times now: a string of decisions, where every single one of those decisions was popular, even outright vocally demanded in some cases...only for the finished product to be profoundly disappointing, to the point that it raises substantial ire.

Customer input is important--anyone who says otherwise is a fool or thinks the people they're speaking to are fools. But customer input does not guarantee that customer satisfaction will result. It is a modern-day paradox of game design: you can give the audience everything they ask for, and still end up making them mad.

Because people are, unfortunately, often really bad at knowing what will make them happy, but really good at knowing what thing they respond to positively right this second. The two are correlated, but they are not identical.
 

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These type of threads are funny. Sone things I don't even mention as WotC isn't gonna do it regardless. Eg dump classes, make the game 20 levels or whatever.

Personal preferences aside my 6E would use 5E engine probably maybe tweaked. Might stretch bounded accuracy to say 4E numbers (+10 over 20 levels).

I would do polling on simple vs complex. Then hit points with deadlylibess. Eg lower hot points and danage across the board, increase them or leave as is.

Assuming eventually revising 5E isn't doing it.
 

These type of threads are funny. Sone things I don't even mention as WotC isn't gonna do it regardless. Eg dump classes, make the game 20 levels or whatever.

Personal preferences aside my 6E would use 5E engine probably maybe tweaked. Might stretch bounded accuracy to say 4E numbers (+10 over 20 levels).

I would do polling on simple vs complex. Then hit points with deadlylibess. Eg lower hot points and danage across the board, increase them or leave as is.

Assuming eventually revising 5E isn't doing it.
"Eventually"?

What was 2024?
 



Bearing in mind that I am inventing numbers as I write this post, and thus any numerical balance is extremely unlikely to bear out beyond superficial examination:

Imagine that in this hypothetical 6e, we can define the absolute bare minimum one requires in order to have...a character, as opposed to not having one.

We can, for example, conclude that they can wear cloth (as that tends to be something anyone can use), but have no training beyond that--no skill with armor, weapons, equipment, etc. They have no training/proficiency with any skill, saving throw, or whatever else--but they do have a floor modifier of +0 to any such derived statistics. Implicitly, they have less than 10 in their stats, as these stats are likely to be developed through play--though perhaps choosing some set of non-penalty ability scores (but not actual bonus) is warranted. This character has no class features, no feats. Background could be more complicated, but we'll assume that that background will get established later. Lacking class features, they can't cast spells. We can, however, presume that they understand at least one language both spoken and written. Likely, the character has a species/race/physiology/etc. That one's a bit harder to explain being discovered/learned by doing/etc., but perhaps it could be elective too with a bit of extra effort. (I would not expect the system to be designed from that point, but it could be a bolt-on.)

From there, we start defining chunky pieces of the features a full character would have, that this one doesn't. Things like:
  • Various armor/weapon training
  • Increasing base HP
  • Improving saving throws
  • Learning skills
  • Improving ability scores
  • Gaining cantrips and a spellcasting modifier
  • Gaining a 1st level spell and slot
  • Gaining a core baseline class feature (e.g. Bardic Inspiration, Lay on Hands, Divine/Primal Order, etc.)

Some of these might lock you into specific choices, e.g. if you choose Intelligence as your spellcasting modifier, you can't become a Druid or Bard, or if you improve your hit points up to the maximum, you can only be a Barbarian, etc.; but that's for later speculation.

Then, we explain various ways of assembling these pieces to produce an easier experience. Zeroed out across the board, that's your ultra-gritty OSR-style starting experience. Good defenses, HP, saves, but otherwise feature-free? That's your "training wheels" approach for brand-new players. Perhaps, maybe in a supplement, develop rules for a quicker-but-still-granular character creation--sort of an "accelerated novice levels" sort of thing--so that people who love making their characters grow organically can do so, really letting them "play" the character to "build" it, as it were.

Further, produce a handful of official "starter character" adventures, fully designed around having characters that are this much weaker than a standard character. (After all, this would be one of the best ways for people to learn the ins and outs of the new system!) Have at least one of those "starter character" adventures be specifically geared for an old-school experience, so that that approach is clearly marked as just as much warranted and accepted as any other. You could even implement random results for what things characters get by achieving goals in their starter-character adventures, so that the player genuinely discovers what they're going to play by playing, rather than by having a single roll of the dice tell them.
I could get on board with this.
I ran something similar once for a short-lived campaign for characters around 14-16 years of age - so not yet classed characters but that had 1-2 proficiencies such as a bow or javelin and a tool-like proficiency.
There were some GM interpretive loss conditions which acted as safety nets but the players enjoyed it the free-form of it all.
 


Customer input is important--anyone who says otherwise is a fool or thinks the people they're speaking to are fools. But customer input does not guarantee that customer satisfaction will result. It is a modern-day paradox of game design: you can give the audience everything they ask for, and still end up making them mad.
which is not what I said WotC should do.

They definitely should ask for feedback during the design process to see how popular ideas are. They should not replace the design process with having the people design the game for them via the UAs.

4e’s fault was that the designers thought they knew what the audience wanted and never asked anything, only to find out that in reality they did not have the slightest idea what their audience wanted.

I am not sure that they know a lot more about what their audience wants today, but now they at least check in with it for some changes, others they certainly do without asking and sometimes they go against what the poll told them for some reasons.

The problem obviously is twofold, there is not one audience in which everyone wants the same things, and the coalitions that result in majorities for different things might not go well together in all cases. So WotC cannot / should not just outsource their game design to polls, but they definitely should have polls.

If your ‘design by popularity’ means they should just outsource all the decisions then I agree that it is not a good idea. I took it to mean to ask for feedback, not to do whatever is popular across the board, turning their designers into pollsters.
 
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I mean if they revise it again. Eventually they'll do a new edition. That's not a revision.
I would design the engine 1st then start polling.
While internal playtesting is of course important, I really wish they would stop with the "public playtests" which are really just part of the marketing department. If they really wanted to playtest stuff on a large scale,they would introduce it via AL and actually collect useful data and feedback.
 

While this is an interesting idea,I am wondering how exactly one would overhaul the combat system in order to make these inherent support casters feel just as important and impactful as the damage dealers.
I think having casters should shine out of combat, but in combat martial classes should feel special and important. Have casters buff, curse, and manipulate the environment in combat. Out of combat they can still do amazing things that solve problems.
 

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