D&D General 6E But A + Thread

[TwoSix]

Understood. It's a bit baffling. I think the "fixes" are really right there in front of them, but likely for perceived business reasons, they're stuck in a loop many businesses find themselves in, where they think they have to continue churning out new products to maintain sales.

Like restaurants that keep adding things to the menu because the marketing of those new dishes drives more foot traffic.

It's a common, albeit flawed, business model, and usually, eventually leads to a brand revamp where the restaurant drops all but half a dozen of their most popular things from the menu.

IMO, as made evident by games like Shadowdark and other effectively lite D&D clones, people today want simpler, quicker gameplay. More people actually want fewer rules, not more. The market is telling us this.

Personally, I would prefer D&D to stay more on the "crunchy rules" side. Not because I think that's better, but because crunchy games benefit much more from manpower and resources being applied to them. And WotC is one of the few companies that actually have the resources to do that.

 

[Lanefan]

Unfortunately, that simply won't happen. Like I understand where you're going with that, but that will not--ever--be the default rules of the game. This isn't a speculation on my part; it is a statement of fact.

People aren't interested in waiting six to twelve IRL months to get something.

Six to twelve in-game months.

Which can go by in a flash at the table or, more commonly IME, take years to go by at the table as people keep adventuring in the meantime; and adventuring days can easily take a session each to go by (last night's session as an example: in in-game time we started at 2 pm one day and ended at noon the next).

But doesn't that mean waiting four to six months to use it? From what you've said previously about how slow levelling is.

Sometimes, yes. Or they use it sooner at a non-proficiency to-hit penalty and greater risk of fumbling, I've seen this done.

And I have never--not once--seen a GM willing to hand out anything near that number of weapons. Even the most treasure-filled campaign I've ever played didn't have that. Perhaps that's how some folks ran it in the past, but I've never seen a shred of evidence that something like that would be tolerated today, nor that it was even particularly acceptable 30 years ago.

I'd blame 3e's wealth-by-level guidelines for setting that trend; and 4e's fairly strict treasure-parcel system didn't help. 5e just doesn't like giving out treasure, period. If those are the only editions you've played then it's easy to see how experiences like yours could occur.

So maybe that's a change to propose for 6e: be way more generous with loot and treasure (and provide useful ways of spending it, too!) but also build in some sort of magic item destruction mechanism a la 1e to make it all a bit more easy come, easy go.

 

[TwoSix]

So maybe that's a change to propose for 6e: be way more generous with loot and treasure (and provide useful ways of spending it, too!) but also build in some sort of magic item destruction mechanism a la 1e to make it all a bit more easy come, easy go.

Agreed. I'm a bit of a broken record in saying this, but I wish D&D had much less fixed progression (in terms of gaining abilities through leveling) and much more diegetic progression (abilities gained within the fiction, primarily magic items, boons, transformations, and most especially consumables).

The best way to foster attachment to a PC's actual growth (not just their concept) is to make that growth a one-time deal, that isn't just a selection from a menu of options.

 

[kermit4karate]

... also build in some sort of magic item destruction mechanism a la 1e to make it all a bit more easy come, easy go.

They've already had that. It's called a DM.

 

[Lanefan]

One thing I can't really decide for myself in a theoretical 6E is how important magic items should be, math wise.

I think the best approach to 6e might be to not overthink the math at all and just leave it close enough for rock'n'roll. An extra +1 or +2 here or there - who cares?

3e and (even more so) 4e tried to fine-tune the math way too much. 5e just reined it all in with bounded accuracy but still tries too hard to fine-tune it. After a certain fairly basic point, diminishing returns massively outweigh the effort spent.

 

[TwoSix]

I think the best approach to 6e might be to not overthink the math at all and just leave it close enough for rock'n'roll. An extra +1 or +2 here or there - who cares?

3e and (even more so) 4e tried to fine-tune the math way too much. 5e just reined it all in with bounded accuracy but still tries too hard to fine-tune it. After a certain fairly basic point, diminishing returns massively outweigh the effort spent.

Magic items just shouldn't provide pluses. Perfect world, a player should only ever have to add their ability modifier to any dice roll; any other modification should modify the dice rolls (change the die, add a bonus/malus die, etc.)

 

[Lanefan]

Well, the Spells are the resources in 5E: it is a game of attrition of Spell Slots and HP, more than water and food, etc. Though the latter help overall if kept track of carefully.

Except there isn't any real attrition of either spell slots or hit points: you get them all back every morning.

Water, food, arrows, etc. don't automatically replenish every morning; you have to track and manage their use over the longer term unless you can resupply in the field somehow.

 

[Lanefan]

They've already had that. It's called a DM.

They might have come later in a splatbook somewhere but core 5e doesn't have any rules-based means of destroying magic items that I know of. I'm not sure if 4e did either; I don't remember any.

 

[Rainbow Scissors]

-I think 6E should extend the game back out to 30 levels again (like 4E did).
-Have more decision points. Printing books with more feats doesn't do much of anything for me when 5E so heavily limits how many I can take.
- feats should not compete with ability score increases; if the game assumes ability score increases, do it the way that 4E did. Though, rather than having it be an ability score increase, perhaps categorize it as some manner of bonus. "Paragon Bonus: +1" or whatever. While the effect is the same, there are times when having the underlying ability score separate might open up some design space to do things that allow the actual scores to mean something again.
-In general, get away from everything granting a +N bonus and instead give interesting features. I'm okay with doing a minor +1 bonus from race/species and then another minor +1 bonus from background, but define things more in terms of new features and options rather than raw numbers. Again, this would tie into making the actually underlying ability scores actually mean something again.
-be okay with accepting that not every setting needs to be the same. It's okay to have a Dark Sun with darker and harsher themes be a product alongside some other high fantasy rated E setting. When I go to the movies, there are multiple genres available for the same movie screens. I think D&D could have a generic base as a "screen," upon which different audiences could play different genres of content.

 

[Remathilis]

Here's my wish list for 6e:

• It should be simpler. The are to many fiddlely bits, to much micromanaging, too many niche bonuses and obscure rules. Things should be light and simple.
• The rules rules should be clearly defined. Too much of the and relies on DM fiat and overly broad rules that are hard to adjudicate. Rules should be clear, precise, and concrete and cover a wide variety of actions and situations so that there is no debate between the player and DM what is or isn't allowed.
• The DM should be firmly in control of the game as the final arbiter. He should use his skills and judgement to determine what is best for his game and the rules should empower his judgement.
• The rules should allow players complete control to build their PCs as they wish without interference from DMs forcing their will on them. Tools should be given to reign DM abuses in check and allow players the freedom to express themselves though a variety of character options, traits and features that allow for every precise specialization and supports niche builds.

I'm sure WotC will have no trouble fulfilling that simple list.