A bit tired of people knocking videogames...

[Glade Riven]

This is one of those things that goes in the I don't understand the problem category. I keep seeing complaints that "x is too much like a videogame."

The problem I find is that pencil and paper RPGs have had a huge influence on videogames and videogaming culture. Sure, there is the whole RPG genre (whether the typical turn-based rail-roading JRPG or more open games such as the Elder Scrolls series), but beyond that, RPG elements have shown up in platformers, first person shooters, Real Time and Turn Based Strategy games...name a genre, and RPG elements have influenced it. While not a new phenominon, many developers are wanting to grow the communal aspect. Some are even looking into heading towards collective storytelling.

So something feels like a videogame when you play it. Well, that comment is left rather undefined. How does it feel like a videogame?

If your game feels like a multi-hour long grind-fest for the sake of grinding, you're probably running it wrong. Go pick up some Paizo APs or something.

If your game feels like an intricatly designed Zelda dungeon with crazy puzzles, traps, and unique combat opertunities, you're probably running it right.

I came late to the roleplaying party. But I know good gameplay, and I know good level design when I see it. And I know this stuff because of videogames, and the influence that good game design has across multiple mediums (pencil & paper and videogames being separate mediums). There's more opertunity for freedom with pencil & paper, although with videogames there is the advantage of deus ex machina behind the curtain.

Sure, cultural elements from popular gaming culture will find it's way into pencil & paper, as well as practical game design elements. But to me it just looks like a bit of chocolate in my peanutbutter.

So I don't get the problem.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This is one of those things that goes in the I don't understand the problem category. I keep seeing complaints that "x is too much like a videogame."

Part of that is that the people saying that probably have different expectations of videogames and the game or style of game in question.

So something feels like a videogame when you play it. Well, that comment is left rather undefined. How does it feel like a videogame?

Without getting specific in this thread, I know that when I make such a complaint, I can be quite specific. If I don't in a particular post, it is because I've probably covered that ground with the other posters in that thread before.

I can also say that when the guys in my current game group made complaints along those lines about certain games, they, too, were quite specific.

So I don't get the problem.

Well, again not specifying the exact RPG, the guys in my group criticized a game as being videogamey and got very detailed. The overall reason they disliked it on those grounds was that it required players to track things that they'd rather a computer did. They felt it added to their workload.

And since most of these guys are both serious computer gamers and veteran P&P gamers- including at least one who is a professional computer game designer- I took them at their word.

In my case, I criticized the same game of having mechanics that reminded me of certain arcade games- games I really, really enjoyed. This diminished my immersion in the P&P RPG. I don't play RPGs to simulate arcade games, generally speaking. Despite attempts by fans of the game to persuade me otherwise, the mechanics have still not lost that vibe for me, years later.

 

[Dannager]

There are people who complain that "This tabletop roleplaying game is too video-gamey!" when what they actually mean is "This tabletop roleplaying game has too many game-like elements!" Video games are the popular scapegoat because a) people are very familiar with them, b) they are contemporary, and c) there are some pretty strong elitist WoW-is-for-losers, video-games-don't-let-me-do-whatever-I-want, my-entertainment-medium-of-choice-is-better-than-yours threads running through the tabletop gaming community.

Immersion is incredibly overrated.

 

[The Shaman]

In my experience there are a couple of reasons why computer roleplaying games are compared unfavorably to tabletop roleplaying games.

I think the most significant is that no computer game yet programmed can match the flexibility of gamers. Tabletop games which feel like they limit that inherent flexibility too much seem to be the one's most often hit with the 'computer game' tag; what is 'too much' is a subjective experience, and thus disagreements arise over whether or not a that tag is fair or not, reasonable or not.

I can give you an example from your own post.

If your game feels like an intricatly designed Zelda dungeon with crazy puzzles, traps, and unique combat opertunities, you're probably running it right.

If all a tabletop roleplaying game offers is this experience, then I would disagree that this is 'running it right.'

If I can't say, "Right, I'm not interested in searching this hole for the Boggle of Zoon any longer. Let's go enslave some orcs and conquer the Duchy of Fiffifth instead," then the game is going to feel too limited to me. If I can't keep a handful of sand in my pocket to toss in some sniveling git's eyes without the 'Improved Sand Throwing' feat or the 'Come Get Some . . . Sand in Your Face' encounter power, then the game is going to feel too limited to me. If I can't say, "Okay, I've maxed out Use Rope, so I'm going to rig a Tyrolean traverse to get us across this bog without getting our boots wet," then the game is going to feel too limited to me.

A favorable comparison between encounter design in computer roleplaying games and tabletop roleplaying games actually highlights why some tabletop gamers aren't enamored of the influence of computer games.

Mes deux sous . . .

 

[ProfessorCirno]

90% of the time they mean "look I dislike video games and I dislike this tabletop game so it's just like a video game."

Note how often the comparison turns to shambles once you ask them what elements of the game it reminds them off. I'm often intrigued of this strange form of World of Warcraft that exists in another timeline in which nobody ever raids, the spells and abilities are timed on an encounter scale, and none of the classes have mana/rage/focus/energy.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

If I can't say, "Okay, I've maxed out Use Rope, so I'm going to rig a Tyrolean traverse to get us across this bog without getting our boots wet," then the game is going to feel too limited to me.

You must've hated D&D before 3e came along.

 

[The Shaman]

You must've hated D&D before 3e came along.

On the contrary, I'd just pull off my shoelaces and show the dungeon master how it's rigged, and we'd be across the bog before you could say Len Lakofka.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

90% of the time they mean "look I dislike video games and I dislike this tabletop game so it's just like a video game."

I honestly don't recall seeing this position ever.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

On the contrary, I'd just pull off my shoelaces and show the dungeon master how it's rigged, and we'd be across the bog before you could say Len Lakofka.

But then you aren't using your Use Rope skill!

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I honestly don't recall seeing this position ever.

Really? Because judging as how hilariously fast the "too video gamey" arguments crumble to the ground once asked how things are too video gamey, I'd say that's about the only position I see on the topic.