D&D 4E A casual gamer's thoughts on 4e

[Psychotron]

Hi. My name is Chris, and I figured I'd post something regarding the Fourth Edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

First things first. I'm not a "purist." I got into Dungeons and Dragons later than most, starting with AD&D Second Edition. I didn't necessarily mind the rules, but when D&D 3rd Edition came out, I jumped on the bandwagon, and was happy to join D&D with a clean slate, so to speak. And I did enjoy 3rd edition, even with the quirks that were corrected in D&D 3.5. I grumbled when 3.5 came out, honestly, but I did pick it up, and even enjoyed it.

While I'm sure D&D Fourth Edition will be nice, the problem I'm having with a new edition is primarily one of perception. For instance, when D&D 3e was released, it had been a while since the rules had been tweaked. Not only that, Wizards of the Coast did a great job with helping people convert their characters over to Third Edition. There were a few people that complained, but the overall feeling I got from game stores and gamers was that this was a great thing, a wonderful leap forward.

3.5 changed that perception somewhat. While quite a few people bought the books, a lot more people grumbled about it being a sales tactic. While I personally love buying sourcebooks, buying the revised Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual soured me a bit. After all, that was 60 dollars or three other gaming books that I could have bought.

This leads me to my central point. I think there's a polite fiction that exists between the makers of an RPG and those of us who buy it, that being that while they are making money, they also want us to have a better gaming experience. So when we buy the Complete Fighter, for instance, we're making fighters more cool in our games. When we buy the Spell Compendium, we're giving our wizards more options. You see my point.

When gamers have to buy a new edition though, the polite fiction gets shattered. I appreciate the reasoning behind launching another edition, that they're trying to make a better game, but I don't know a gamer who seriously believes ANY RPG can be perfect. As I'm typing this, I'm looking over my selection of 3.0/3.5 sourcebooks, and wondering how many of them are going to be rendered obsolete by the new edition. Can I convert them over? Probably. Of course, if this new game is similar enough to Star Wars Saga Edition, that's going to be a huge drain on my time, time that I could better spend, say, actually gaming.

While Dungeons and Dragons 3.x series wasn't perfect, a ton of variant rules came out for them. Swift and Immediate actions were introduced. New core classes were designed, feats aplenty came up for every occasion, and alternate classes were created. I bought a lot of books with these new rules in them, and I didn't feel that Wizards of the Coast was ripping me off at all. Fourth Edition, though...I'm getting the same feeling that I got when 3.5 came out. I don't want to have to buy three more core rulebooks. I don't want to have to buy another Psionics Handbook, Planar Handbook, Fighters Handbook, Forgotten Realms Sourcebook, or any of that stuff. On the other hand, I want to keep up with the latest cool stuff coming out, so I'm in a quandry.

That's my take on Fourth Edition. Please understand, I am not, NOT trying to be mean to any of the Wizards of the Coast employees. I think they are trying to do the best job wtih Dungeons and Dragons they possibly can, and I do applaud them for that. If anyone has another view, aka why Dungeons and Dragons really needed to be given another edition, feel free to post something. I'd like to hear an alternate opinion.

 

[Korgoth]

If anyone has another view, aka why Dungeons and Dragons really needed to be given another edition, feel free to post something. I'd like to hear an alternate opinion.

Speaking just for myself, I don't like 3rd Edition. I find it, among other things (I could really go on at length but I won't) far too fussy and fiddly with all its little modifiers that might or might not stack, its reliance on magical junk instead of character prowess, its focus "builds" & planning your character out levels in advance, etc. So I'm actually pretty interested in a 4th Edition because maybe I'll like it better. There's a good chance I won't like it any better, of course... but currently my interest in new (3E) products from Wizards is "0". Since it doesn't go any lower than zero, there's nowhere to go but up. Speaking for myself, of course.

 

[Jack99]

Hi. My name is Chris, and I figured I'd post something regarding the Fourth Edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

First things first. I'm not a "purist." .....

Hi. My name is Chris, and I think you are wrong.

3.5, while a great improvement from 2.0, is still miles from being anything but perfect, and it should be fixed. Sure its playable, but lets face it, so was 2.0 and all the other editions.

Every edition is better than the previous one, because [drumroll] WoTC learn from the previous ones, they learn what works and what doesnt work. Not to mention the increased feedback from a fairly vocal community, which has only really taken off AFTER 3.0. Before 3.0, most of the feedback was random letters and small stuff in Dragon.

Let's face it, lots have changed concerning that.

Therefore, I have every faith in WoTC and 4e. I might get disappointed, but so far, I have been playing this game for about 20 years, and I have yet to be disappointed with a new edition.

 

[caudor]

Torn between present and future.

That pretty much sums it up for me (and I suspect a lot of other folks).

Here now I have this great 3.5 edition with tons of options, new (untried) classes, tons of unplayed published and magazine adventures, and entire sourcebooks I have not delved into yet. If only I had more time...

On the horizon, I see an improved game that offers digital tools that make preparation easier and players faster. I'll be able to play with distant friends online.

In a way, it boils down to using what I've already invested in versus moving on to something that may likely be much cooler.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

That's my take on Fourth Edition. Please understand, I am not, NOT trying to be mean to any of the Wizards of the Coast employees. I think they are trying to do the best job wtih Dungeons and Dragons they possibly can, and I do applaud them for that. If anyone has another view, aka why Dungeons and Dragons really needed to be given another edition, feel free to post something. I'd like to hear an alternate opinion.

Did D&D need another edition?

Probably not, except from an IP health perspective - the alternative to a new edition would almost certainly have been the death of non-setting-specific material from WotC within the next few years. You mention that you like keeping up with the newest cool stuff - well, chances are very high that there wouldn't have BEEN much if any new cool stuff, that the design space in the existing framework was basically expended. I know whenever I sat down to try and concept even something as small as an article for Dragon in the last couple of years, I kept bumping into the realization that either what I wanted to do wouldn't work for D&D or it had already been done. Often, it had been done twice or more, and the most refined version was pretty close to as good as it was going to get within the existing framework.

A new edition reopens much of that design space and opens more. If it's good (which we won't know for sure until it hits shelves), it will open a lot more and do the things it does better. It will be the ultimate in 'new cool stuff' to keep up with.

Let me just say right now - I liked every single one of the 3.5 changes, but I don't think they opened up much, if any, new design space. The Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster constituted the entirety of the 'new cool stuff' in that release, and they were basically patches to the system. The whole core re-release was comprised of patches to the system, which meant it was, ultimately, not cool or exciting at all.

The first two Complete books (Warrior and Divine) were very similar to the 3.5 core: they were basically addressing the things that were wrong about the enthusiastic but screwy 3.0 splatbooks. They were bug fixes. Complete Adventurer and especially Complete Arcane actually opened up some new design space - I would assume Complete Arcane represents the first in-house '4e testbed product,' courtesy of the Warlock class. Those two products got back on the track of bringing the awesome rather than fixing the broken. The Expanded Psionics Handbook opened a ton of design space (some of the ONLY space that WASN'T filled in the intervening years, actually) even though it obviously started out as a bug fix, too.

A new edition that focuses on the good parts of new releases - on bringing the awesome in new and interesting ways - will provide you with more 'new cool stuff' than you could ever get anywhere else.

A new edition that focuses on the bad parts - on bug fixes, on filling the smallest imaginable niches - will be boring and drab as 3.5 was.

We can't know for sure which 4e will be until it comes, but based on your description of your tastes and buying habits, I suspect it will actually give you MORE of what you want, rather than less - and definitely more than you would have gotten in the future without it.

 

[Stalker0]

I think a new edition is good because of the stuff I've seen come out lately...and I mean that in a good way.

Lately, I've been seeing some real innovation in the design work. Martial manuevers, skill tricks, swift/immediate actions, reserve feats, all great ideas. But they are a patch at best, and sometimes they show it.

I think the designers have enough great ideas to cook up a new edition, placing all of the juicy good ideas they have had lately and integrating them cleanly into a new edition. That would be something worth buying imo.

 

[SHARK]

Did D&D need another edition?

Probably not, except from an IP health perspective - the alternative to a new edition would almost certainly have been the death of non-setting-specific material from WotC within the next few years. You mention that you like keeping up with the newest cool stuff - well, chances are very high that there wouldn't have BEEN much if any new cool stuff, that the design space in the existing framework was basically expended. I know whenever I sat down to try and concept even something as small as an article for Dragon in the last couple of years, I kept bumping into the realization that either what I wanted to do wouldn't work for D&D or it had already been done. Often, it had been done twice or more, and the most refined version was pretty close to as good as it was going to get within the existing framework.

A new edition reopens much of that design space and opens more. If it's good (which we won't know for sure until it hits shelves), it will open a lot more and do the things it does better. It will be the ultimate in 'new cool stuff' to keep up with.

Let me just say right now - I liked every single one of the 3.5 changes, but I don't think they opened up much, if any, new design space. The Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster constituted the entirety of the 'new cool stuff' in that release, and they were basically patches to the system. The whole core re-release was comprised of patches to the system, which meant it was, ultimately, not cool or exciting at all.

The first two Complete books (Warrior and Divine) were very similar to the 3.5 core: they were basically addressing the things that were wrong about the enthusiastic but screwy 3.0 splatbooks. They were bug fixes. Complete Adventurer and especially Complete Arcane actually opened up some new design space - I would assume Complete Arcane represents the first in-house '4e testbed product,' courtesy of the Warlock class. Those two products got back on the track of bringing the awesome rather than fixing the broken. The Expanded Psionics Handbook opened a ton of design space (some of the ONLY space that WASN'T filled in the intervening years, actually) even though it obviously started out as a bug fix, too.

A new edition that focuses on the good parts of new releases - on bringing the awesome in new and interesting ways - will provide you with more 'new cool stuff' than you could ever get anywhere else.

A new edition that focuses on the bad parts - on bug fixes, on filling the smallest imaginable niches - will be boring and drab as 3.5 was.

We can't know for sure which 4e will be until it comes, but based on your description of your tastes and buying habits, I suspect it will actually give you MORE of what you want, rather than less - and definitely more than you would have gotten in the future without it.

Greetings!

Excellent article. That is very thoughtful, and persuasive. I like it a lot!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

You know I played very little of the previous editions but over the years in addition to all my extensive 3e and 3.5 material I have bought original, 2e and so on just to get certain fluff products, such as Faerun stuff and various other campaign settings. Information.

What Im afraid of and I think others are too is that our books become obsolete. And become like the books I have been collecting the last few year, Just pieces of information cause their rules dont work anymore. What if I want to play incarnum? Pickng and Choosing the closest thing wont cut it.

Ive said before I think it needed a revision. Fix what was wrong. It didnt need another edition. A simple 96 page booklet that upgraded and let us know about the changes should have and would have sufficed, not spending 90-120 bucks on another set of rules. I'll wait and see, but Im really not looking forward to this. Though I do want to playtest it. And I think anyone who has a vested interest in this product should try and get in on the Playtesting. Its almost like voting. Dont like it try and change it.

 

[Howndawg]

One thing you'll notice if you look at the history of the game is that with every new edition of D&D, new gamers are brought into the fold and old ones leave. This is in part because not only does each new edition improve upon the system, but also because each new edition has a different design philosophy as well. First edition focused strongly on a quasi-medieval setting (Greyhawk) and the game relected on this. Second Edition tried to expand upon the fantasy horizons and opened up the game to settings which were not medieval in the least. Third tried to get back to a core emphasis on a common gaming experience but with the medievalism downplayed. It looks like Fourth is trying to expand the game beyond a uniform way of doing things but without the competing game lines that sunk TSR in the nineties. This philosophy could bring back Planescape and Dark Sun fans (among others) who abandoned the game when 3E came out.

I like 3.x rules. They are on the whole the best D&D rules ever. However, I do not care for the design philosophy behind 3E. Dungeon Punk makes me want to throw up and I hate having a CR system designed around how much gear the players have.

4E is necessary to expand the appeal of D&D to new players and ex players alike, hopefully without alienating any current players. If done right this objective would give D&D a good shot in the arm, which it needs at the moment. If done wrong, well...

Hope I didn't ramble too much.
Howndawg

 

[caudor]

Another reason I think they released a new edition (instead of updating 3.5) has to do with the move to online services/tools to compliment the game.

With 4e, they have a fresh slate to build the online tools, prepare database data, etc. They don't have to 'retrofit' anything.

And if they release stuff like Incarnum 4e, I'm sure many folks will buy it as well. It has worked for them before.