D&D 4E A casual gamer's thoughts on 4e

One thing that is really concerning me about 4E, and almost assuring that I won't like it, is that its sounding like its putting Dragonball Z into my fantasy.

If thats the case I will definitley leave 4E alone. Completely. Even the modules.

If I want Dragonball Z I have BESM for that.

D&D is for my DUNGEONS and DRAGONS. Not super heroes with a fantasy back drop.

3E had already taken a bunch of steps towards the super heroes direction and it is sounding like its taking a bunch more steps in that direction.

I hope I am wrong, but reading through Tome of Battles again does nothing but convince me that is the way it is going.

I hope I am wrong. But I am afraid that I am right.
 

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Hi, my name is Alek, and I don't get it. I actually don't understand the collector's passion to have every other published D&D book. I started playing D&D with 3e which was first edition available in our country en masse.

Now I bought the core rulebooks and was happy with them. I bought Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting to have some ideas how such world should look like, not to play FR. I bought Enemies and Allies for inspiration as I did bought Book of Challanges. I have Dungeon Tiles which are universal and Dungeon Master's Guide II which I love because of the Robin Law's part about DMing. And I have two Expeditions to...

Looking at these books I think I have done good selection. It is not about making characters cooler. Because they are cool enough. For me it is more about tools and fluff ideas. I don't need exact numbers for characters, but the ideas from Enemies and Allies are sweet. The same goes for Book of Challanges. I will probably have to convert the adventures but still, the story stays the same. Just the stats are changing.

I never take the numbers as dogma rather guidlines. I usually do stats by guess and by God. Nobody complains, because the game is fun. And I want players to work more with their characters and less with calculator. I don't wish to bring up new generation of rules lawers but role-players. That is why I am not complaining and looking forward to 4e.

I will use most of the books I have without any problems. I have nothing I think is obsolete. And I like the way the new game is going. And I am not going to buy the fillers stuff. I am not and will be not interested in new feats, prestige classes, mechanics, spells, magic items and such. What I am looking for is an inspiration. Characters. Stories. Adventure hooks. It might take a time, till WotC will publish some gem like this, but I am patient.

I think you should consider your investments. The new edition will not be forever. Look at how long exist 1e, 2e and 3e. If you think your investment is right for that span of time, go and buy the book that will last just that long. But than don't be bitter. You did your own, well-informed decision. Or you can buy something which will inspire you forever. That way you can be happy too.

I wish you happy games, lots of fun with this or any other edition and optimistic view of the future.

Alek alias Alnag
 

Korgoth said:
Speaking just for myself, I don't like 3rd Edition. ... its focus "builds" & planning your character out levels in advance, etc.


Just to nitpick -- that particular complaint has nothing to do with 3E rules, or any other version of the rules set. I doubt you can go through the rules and find the term character "build". The complaint is more appropriately directed at a subset of players who go in for min/max character optimization, many of whom probably ported much of that attitude and language from video game models (but then there were players who did the same thing back in the old days, so maybe not).

Valid complaint, but blame the players, not the game here.
 

I was in a similar situation to you. I had gamed a lot under 1E and Basic in the late 70s through much of the 80s and into the early 90s. However, I missed a lot of 2E and did not get back into gaming until 1998, and was way behind in 2E. When 3E came out, I was a big promoter of it in the gaming group, figuring I'd be on a level playing field with all the people that knew 2E backwards & forwards.

But, if I'm not mistaken, when 3E came out, WotC announced they would be revising the rules within a few years with 3.5 so they could consolidate errata and fix things up a bit?

Also, I remember when 2E was announced, Dragon magazine was filled with letters to the editor of people complaining about how it was all about the money with TSR, they'd never convert to 2E, why was a new edition needed, etc, etc. It's just a cycle that happens in gaming... however, with the advent of the internets, the cycle has sped up a bit from 10 years or so to 7.
 

Olgar Shiverstone said:
Just to nitpick -- that particular complaint has nothing to do with 3E rules, or any other version of the rules set. I doubt you can go through the rules and find the term character "build". The complaint is more appropriately directed at a subset of players who go in for min/max character optimization, many of whom probably ported much of that attitude and language from video game models (but then there were players who did the same thing back in the old days, so maybe not).

Valid complaint, but blame the players, not the game here.

This is caused by having a hierarchy of talents with prerequisites. It is not fun to reach level 12 and go "okay I want a super cool feat" and then realize that they all require other feats you don't have. The only alternative is to plan ahead.
 

Psychotron said:
Hi. My name is Chris, and I figured I'd post something regarding the Fourth Edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

Hi Chris! My name's Mike, nice to meet you.

This leads me to my central point. I think there's a polite fiction that exists between the makers of an RPG and those of us who buy it, that being that while they are making money, they also want us to have a better gaming experience. So when we buy the Complete Fighter, for instance, we're making fighters more cool in our games. When we buy the Spell Compendium, we're giving our wizards more options. You see my point.

Yes, and a well stated point too. You're absolutely right, the polite fiction that RPGs are somehow not a business is a luxury we have in this tight-knit community. It's not that way with say, computer games or MMORPGs, that's for sure.

While Dungeons and Dragons 3.x series wasn't perfect, a ton of variant rules came out for them. Swift and Immediate actions were introduced. New core classes were designed, feats aplenty came up for every occasion, and alternate classes were created. I bought a lot of books with these new rules in them, and I didn't feel that Wizards of the Coast was ripping me off at all.

And I for one am tired of seeing Swift and Immediate actions restated in every rulebook, all that talk about getting polymorph "right," the errata that changed my game in a significant way. You get a grapple vs. Evard's Black Tentacles EVERY ROUND? Why didn't someone say something before -- my lead cultist decimated the entire party because of that one simple change. If that's in 4.0, the game would be better from that one rules change alone.

I'm hoping many of those rules will be part of the new game.

On the other hand, I want to keep up with the latest cool stuff coming out, so I'm in a quandry.

I dunno, I just sell all my books to Noble Knight Games or on half.com and then take that money to buy new stuff. Worked for my transition from 2.0 to 3.0 and 3.0 to 3.5.

If anyone has another view, aka why Dungeons and Dragons really needed to be given another edition, feel free to post something. I'd like to hear an alternate opinion.

So here's an alternate opinion: you can play D&D with whatever you've got right now. WOTC could never print another page and you'd be set for life. This is a game of imagination, and few hobbies give you the complete building blocks to create more of said hobby for under 100 bucks. You're done. Close your eyes, open your imagination, and never look back.

But there are a lot of folks who don't see it just as a personal hobby. They see it as an investment hobby, with new and interesting ideas added to the game by an official source. They want, they CRAVE, new additions to the game. They look forward to using the new rules that come out or incorporating them into the game already. So they want published books to come out. This follows the typical model of a market, which is a dangerous game any RPG publisher plays since they technically gave you everything you need with the core rules.

But it works, because people buy those unnecessary books.

So from one perspective, D&D is immortal. Whatever you have now is good, you'll never need anything else again, go and have fun.

From another perspective, D&D is a culture of consumers with a common language, defined by WOTC. WOTC continually refines and defines that language by publishing books, so that if we all have Complete Psionic, we all speak the same gaming language and are thus more compatible. This makes us more likely to find new players. This helps keep the community cohesive instead of fragmented. But the rub is that everyone has to buy into it. And of course, not everyone does. So we have fragmentation anyway.

But we have fragmentation amongst OLDER consumers. Markets need fresh blood, that's vital to make them long term consumers. So given the choice...catering between the folks who have been playing for years or providing a new opportunity with each book to catch a new consumer...a business chooses to continue to publish new material and thereby justify its existence. The polite fiction is over: WOTC is a hungry beast and it will continue to make product so long as there are consumers willing to buy it.

Here's my suspicions:

1) There was finally a downturn in D&D sales. That's an excellent reason to launch a new edition alone.

2) The day D&D stops getting a new edition is the day D&D dies as a business model and transforms into a insular hobby model. Mind you, it will always live on in campaigns, open support, the Internet, my imagnation, yadda yadda. But the day the company stops trying to refine a product is the day the game becomes a dead game. Development, evolution, refinement of a product is not only critical to a healthy company, it means the business cares enough about the core product to make it better. The alternative is just declare the game absolutely fantastic as it is, and end up with Palladium's business model.

3) WOTC is trying to SAVE D&D by adding it to the Internet. The old social mediums were people getting together in person to party. But the world has changed. With the fragmentation of in-person social networks and the evolution of online social networks, not only should WOTC be pushing this digital initiative, failure to do so means D&D will become an insular hobby, along with model trains. We can all stand around pretending that it's easy to get five kids together to play a game. We can deny that the hobby on the whole has aged and us adults have time to travel two hours so we can play together for four hours (my situation). We can fool ourselves into thinking that D&D is not a complex game, basically two big fat rules manuals that have to be the most challenging barriers to entry for a hobby on the planet -- "Here kid, you wanna play this game? Learn all these rules first. They're over six hundred pages in total and even though we put it in color with fancy illustrations, a huge chunk of it is about math" -- or we can see what makes D&D great and keep making it better for the next generation.

Me? So long as each new edition has something that seems manifestly better than the version before, I'm gonna keep changing. So in another six years or so, my son will have something to play with his dad.
 

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