A Community SRD?

[Kerrick]

So the offerings for free would usually lack something. Formatting may be needed. Art may be low quality or completely missing. It might be all crunch and no fluff, or vice versa. The professionals could then take these offerings add the finishing touches to make them professional quality and sell the books.

You're thinking full products. I think what Ryan's thinking (and forgive me if I'm wrong) is individual entries - kind of a compilation of bits and pieces. You know, you have a list of feats over here, and PrCs over there, and spells over yonder. That, at least, is what I would like to see.

I still think this is a great idea, personally. I've also got an OGC site (see my sig) with tons and tons of stuff on it. Ryan, if you're really interested in building something like this, start small - take the stuff from sites that people offer up, like myself and Hong, and work from there (actually I'd recommend just linking to my site, since it's so freaking big). Eventually, if it works out well, others might jump on the bandwagon and offer up their OGC too.

The largest problem - and one that has been brought up every time before - is the site's Section 15. You'll have to list every single source for your material, and that could quickly get unwieldy, even if you're only taking the best of the best.

And, of course, there aren't many people out there who are willing to put out free material strictly for the love of the game. I'm an extremely rare exception to the rule - I doubt you'll find more than a couple dozen people like me on these boards, or at all. You could probably find some who'd be willing to help edit and whatnot, but even then it'd be hard to find people to work on a volunteer basis - most of us have day jobs, families, boy/girlfriends, etc., in addition to our writing, which doesn't leave much free time.

Sorry to be all down about it, but I just wanted to give you a view of the other side of this thing. If you actually get something going, I'll be happy to give you what help I can.

 

[Umbran]

While true, some publishers make using their OGC all but impossible and may cry faul and deman you cease and desist should you try to use their material.

Can you actually cite any instances of this occurring?

I don't recall any. I can't imagine anyone familiar with the license challenging in that way. Typically, a publisher releases under the OGL because they have to - they've made use of someone else's (typically WOtC's) open content, and so must release under the license. If the community project does their work properly, challenging the use and ordering cease and desist would, by extension, challenge their own use. What publisher wants to shoot themselves in the foot?

 

[Ry]

If the community project does their work properly, challenging the use and ordering cease and desist would, by extension, challenge their own use. What publisher wants to shoot themselves in the foot?

It's not about legally challenging, it's about the fear, uncertainty, and doubt around the possibility of legal action and costly defense.

 

[philreed]

It's not about legally challenging, it's about the fear, uncertainty, and doubt around the possibility of legal action and costly defense.

It should be about respect. Anyone that properly follows the OGC and OGC/PI statements can do pretty much whatever they want.

The biggest problem I see with this is simply that the publishers with difficult to understand OGC declarations, and very little OGC, will be the ones safest from any negative impact. Those publishers that have issued very clear OGC declarations and/or added a lot, will be the most likely ones hurt.

Respect the work and respect the publishers. Giving everything away devalues work.

The SRD is free for a reason: to sell PHBs.

 

[jezter6]

Not to mention, it kills the small PDF market. If you only sell 1 class as a PDF pay product, and that class is OGC and someone puts it up on this magic OGC database, why would you bother purchasing the published pay product? out of the goodness of your heart? doubtul.

For Phil, Gareth, and Louis...this would sink a major part of their business. There are a lot of others, though less famous, that follow that model as well. For bigger guys (mongoose and the like) I doubt it would hurt as bad.

I've thought about it a thousand times, but I've never seen any support for it, so I give up. I'll think about it again next month, and forget it again.

 

[Ry]

Not to mention, it kills the small PDF market. If you only sell 1 class as a PDF pay product, and that class is OGC and someone puts it up on this magic OGC database, why would you bother purchasing the published pay product? out of the goodness of your heart? doubtul.

OK, this is a straw man. I never said I wanted to comb everybody's OGC content and steal it all. I'm talking about improving the core set of rules that all publishers can work from.

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

I think the main divide here is the difference between published OGL and the fan-created mods for NWN.

I don't have any direct experience with NWN or what rycanada is talking about, but I'm guessing that the Community Expansion Pack arose when the game publisher identified several fan-made mods that were universally accepted within the player community, and decided to make them sort of "officially unofficial".

This is pretty different from what's going on in the D20/OGL scene:

First off, the mod authors (ie small publishers) are marketing their work instead of posting it to community sites. As someone said above, there's dozens of variations on the same class, spell, etc out there, and since everyone is trying to sell their own, there's no reason to come together.

Second, the wide adoption of the mods presumably happened within the fan community, and was recognized by the NWN team. What you're proposing seems to be the opposite. There's no universally recognized Swashbuckler variant, for example. Everyone has their own preferences, and uses different versions. So the consensus on which should be used would either come from WotC, or the small publishers, and neither is going to happen.

Without the free donations, and the independant evaluations, I don't see this happening. Getting buy-in from either side would be next to impossible.

About the only thing I can see working is a group of small publishers, or would-be publishers, banding together to develop their own "SRD 2", sort of like a free online PHB 2. They make all their material themselves, release it freely, and agree that within their group, these will be the standards they adhere to. The actual profit would come from supplemental stuff such as adventures, campaign settings, etc, which use the material.

Essentially, this would be replicating what WotC did with the SRD, but on a much smaller scale. As to who would be in that group, I've no idea. An alliance like IPR would probably be best suited to do so, but I don't think they're doing much D20 these days.

 

[jezter6]

OK, this is a straw man. I never said I wanted to comb everybody's OGC content and steal it all. I'm talking about improving the core set of rules that all publishers can work from.

Straw man...maybe. But it's what you hear from the publishers who are against the idea.

Like I said, I'm all for it.

 

[Drawmack]

You're thinking full products. I think what Ryan's thinking (and forgive me if I'm wrong) is individual entries - kind of a compilation of bits and pieces. You know, you have a list of feats over here, and PrCs over there, and spells over yonder. That, at least, is what I would like to see.

So publishers definately have a place then pulling the random items into cohesive products.

The largest problem - and one that has been brought up every time before - is the site's Section 15. You'll have to list every single source for your material, and that could quickly get unwieldy, even if you're only taking the best of the best.

Here's the solution, simple as Orc and Pie. Set up a database to store the stuff in. Then you create products, including their section fifteens. Then you associate individual items with their products, including their section fifteens. Then you let people read the items on-line and package them for pdf download. When a pdf is generated it only includes the relevent section fifteens. As for the site's over all section fifteen since it's stored in a database you can paginate it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think the best way to do this would be to lead from the front:

Create a D20 or OGL product. Put it on sale. Then take the crunch from it and stick that into an SRD+ document.

Grabbing other folks' creations to distribute for free, while certainly legal under the terms of the OGL, rubs me and I suspect a lot of others folks the wrong way.