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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8521897" data-attributes="member: 6801228">You know, I was reading this thread, and I saw the same “size should equal strength, small races can’t be strong” argument. And then Crimson Longious posted that 3.5 chart of half orcs and humans and halflings, and an idea percolated in my head. And I don’t think this idea is going to revolutionize people’s thoughts, but… it wouldn’t go away. See, we always have the discussion in terms of “races”, we always list which races we are talking about. But what happens to this “perfectly clear” set of examples if we… stopped talking about races. What if we literally just went by height? So, I compiled a list. I wanted to pull from the PHB, Volo’s, Mordenkainen’s, and Eberron (Not counting Dragonmarks). All books published BEFORE Tasha’s. I also didn’t include Ravnica or Theros, because many people don’t seem to consider those “real dnd” settings. This list is solely a list of height and then “average”, “+5%” and “+10%” for the modifiers. And you know what, lotta work, but I then made lists for dexterity and Constitution. Because I really wanted to highlight this. Will it change minds? Doubt it. But I wasn’t going to do all this work and NOT post it. (I'm also 20 pages back, so don't expect any quick responses from me, and apologies if this ends up off-topic) [SPOILER="Strength List"]2’1” -> Average2’2” -> Average2’3” -> Average2’4” -> Average2’5” -> Average2’6” -> Average2’7” -> Average2’8” -> Average2’9” -> Average2’10” -> Average2’11 -> Average3’ -> Average3’1” -> Average3’2” -> Average3’3” -> Average3’4” -> Average3’5” -> Average3’6” -> Average3’7” -> Average3’8” -> Average3’9” -> Average3’10” -> Average3’11” -> Average4’ -> Average / +10%4’1” -> Average / +10%4’2” -> Average / +10%4’3” -> Average / +10%4’4” -> Average / +10%4’5” -> Average / +10%4’6” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’7” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’8” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’9” -> Average / +5%4’10” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’11” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’ -> Average / +5% / +10%5’1” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’2” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’3” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’4” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’5” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’6” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’7” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’8” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’9” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’10” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’11” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’ -> Average / +5% / +10%6’1” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’2” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’3” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’4” ->  Average / +5% / +10%6’5” -> Average / +5% /+10%6’6” -> Average / +5% /+10%6’7” -> +5% /+10%6’8” -> +5% /+10%6’9” -> +5% /+10%6’10” -> +5% /+10%6’11” -> +5% /+10%7’ -> +5% / +10%7’1” -> +5% / +10%7’2” -> +5% / +10%7’3” -> +5% / +10%7’4” -> +5% / +10%7’5” -> +5% / +10%7’6” -> +5% / +10%7’7” -> +5% / +10%7’8” -> +5% / +10%7’9” -> +5% / +10%7’10” -> +5% / +10%7’11” -> +5% / +10%8’ -> +5%/ +10%8’1” -> +5%8’2” -> +5%[/SPOILER][SPOILER="Con List"]2’1” -> Average 2’2” -> Average 2’3” -> Average 2’4” -> Average 2’5” -> Average 2’6” -> Average 2’7” -> Average / +5%2’8” -> Average / +5%2’9” -> Average / +5%2’10” -> Average / +5%2’11 -> Average / +5%3’ -> Average / +5%3’1” -> Average / +5%3’2” -> Average / +5%3’3” -> Average / +5%3’4” -> +5%3’5” -> +5%3’6” -> +5%3’7” -> +5% / +10%3’8” -> +5% / +10%3’9” -> +5% / +10%3’10” -> +5% / +10%3’11” -> +5% / +10%4’ -> +5% / +10%4’1” -> +5% / +10%4’2” -> +10%4’3” ->+10%4’4” -> Average / +10%4’5” -> Average / +10%4’6” -> Average /+5% / +10%4’7” ->Average / +5% / +10%4’8” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’9” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’10” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’11” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’ -> Average / +5% / +10%5’1” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’2” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’3” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’4” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’5” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’6” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’7” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’8” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’9” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’10” -> Average /+5% / +10%5’11” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’ -> Average / +5% / +10%6’1” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’2” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’3” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’4” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’5” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’6” -> Average / +5%  / +10%6’7” -> Average / +5%  / +10%6’8” -> Average / +5%  / +10%6’9” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’10” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’11” -> Average / +5% / +10%7’ -> Average / +5% / +10%7’1” -> Average / +5% / +10%7’2” -> Average / +5% / +10%7’3” ->Average /  +5% /+10%7’4” -> Average / +5% / +10%7’5” -> Average / +5% / +10%7’6” -> Average / +5% /+10%7’7” ->Average /  +5% / +10%7’8” ->Average /  +5% / +10%7’9” -> Average / +5% / +10%7’10” ->  Average / +5% / +10%7’11” -> Average / +5%8’ ->Average / +5%8’1” -> Average 8’2” -> Average [/SPOILER][SPOILER="Dex List"]2’1” -> +10%2’2” -> +10%2’3” -> +10%2’4” -> +10%2’5” -> +10%2’6” -> +10%2’7” -> +10%2’8” -> +10%2’9” -> +10%2’10” -> +10%2’11 -> +5% / +10%3’ -> +5% / +10%3’1” -> +5% / +10%3’2” -> +5% /  +10%3’3” -> +5% / +10%3’4” -> +5%3’5” -> +5% / +10%3’6” -> +5% / +10%3’7” -> +5% / +10%3’8” -> Average / +10%3’9” -> Average / +10%3’10” -> Average / +10%3’11” -> Average / +10%4’ -> Average / +10%4’1” -> Average / +10%4’2” -> Average 4’3” -> Average 4’4” -> Average / +10%4’5” -> Average / +10%4’6” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’7” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’8” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’9” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’10” -> Average / +5% / +10%4’11” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’ -> Average / +5% / +10%5’1” -> Average / +5%  / +10%5’2” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’3” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’4” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’5” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’6” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’7” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’8” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’9” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’10” -> Average / +5% / +10%5’11” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’ -> Average / +5% / +10%6’1” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’2” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’3” -> Average / +5% /+10%6’4” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’5” -> Average /+5% / +10%6’6” -> Average / +5% / +10%6’7” -> Average / +5%6’8” -> Average / +5%6’9” -> Average / +5%6’10” -> Average / +5%6’11” -> Average 7’ -> Average 7’1” -> Average 7’2” -> Average 7’3” ->Average 7’4” -> Average 7’5” -> Average 7’6” -> Average 7’7” ->Average 7’8” ->Average 7’9” -> Average 7’10” Average 7’11” -> Average 8’ ->Average 8’1” -> Average 8’2” -> Average [/SPOILER]So, what does this show? [SPOILER="Some thoughts"]Well, you can have an average Strength from 2ft 1 in until 6ft 6 inches, that is a range of four feet and five inches+5% strength stretches from 4ft 6in until 8ft 2 in, a range of three ft and eight inches+10 strength stretches from 4ft til 8ft, skipping 4’9”. That is a range of four ft, technically. Seems that being 4’9” is just a oddly weak size. But, notice something strange? Between 4ft 6in and 6ft 6in, you can be any of the three. If I tell you my character is in that range, you cannot use that as a predictor. I could be as strong as that 2ft character or as strong as the 8ft character. Constitution is really funky, Average Con? That is 2ft 1in until 3ft 3in then you SKIP to 4ft 4in and go aaaaall the way to 8ft 2in. So, total range is six foot one inch, but you have this twelve inch gap where you are just tougher than normal. +5%? 2ft 7in until 4ft 1in… then we skip again until 4ft 6in and go all the way… to 8ft. So, this is really janky. The total range is five foot five inches, but you’ve got a four inch gap where you are either average or super tough, and if you go over eight foot… you are average. +10% is the easiest. 3ft 7in to 7ft 10in, a range of four foot and three inches. But if you get too tall or too short… you aren’t that tough. Our range where all values are present? 4’6” to 7’10”. Which covers a lot of the same range as the strength numbers. And Dex just for completeness? Well, the Average starts at 3ft 8in and goes til 8ft 2in. Nice and solid, though it covers four foot eight inches of range. But 5%? 2 ft 11in until 3ft 7in then skip to 4ft 6in and go til 6ft 10in. So, the total range is almost four feet, but there is a massive foot wide gap in the middle of it. And 10%? 2ft 1in til 3ft 3in, skip only the notably awkward 3ft 4in, then continue until 4ft 1in, then skip again until 4ft 4in then go til 6ft 6in. So… this is a bit of a mess. Total range is four feet and five inches, but we’ve got random nonsensical hiccups where certain specific inches drop. Like, 4’1” is +10%, 4’2” is Average with a +0, as is 4’3” and then 4’4” you jump back up to being capable of 10%?And where is our overlap? Between 4ft 6in and 6ft 6in. A two foot space. And isn’t that just sort of strange? If you are between four and half and six and a half feet, you are “biologically” likely to have between a +0/+5%/+10% in Strength or Con or Dex. Your size in that range determines nothing much about your chances of having any particular physicality. And sure, the extreme ends tend to peter out a bit. Being below 4ft means you have an average strength, but that is only being 5% weaker than someone who is 8ft, who could very likely be 5% weaker than someone who is 4ft 2in. [/SPOILER]So… is this really consistent or easy to follow? I don’t think so.</blockquote>

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