From my perspective as a DM, I've always felt that Skill DC's were too low, and skill bonuses too high (and let's not even touch poison DC's...thats a rant for a different thread!).
When plannning dungeons and encounters and the like, I have to get rediculously creative if I have any hope of even remotely challenging the rogue with his high skills in search, pick locks, etc...and have similar situations for the physical skills with warriors, social skills of bards and sorcerers, etc.
As a result, I have been looking into ways to limit the player's ability to gain skill ranks quickly. I dont do this to punish the player, although it might appear as such, but rather an attempt to maintain balance with skills and DC's of sorts. Yes, level 12 is SUPER powerful compared to the rest of the world, but it shouldnt be so challenging to challenge even a moderately-equipped character on a day to day basis.
A friend, who runs in my game and is currently planning the campaign that will succeed mine when it wraps up in the next few months, put together this idea for skill advancement.
Table: Difficulty Class Examples
Difficulty (DC) Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)
With 10 ranks in a skill, a d20 (plus appropriate modifiers) can easily result in a “heroic” action (assuming +6 modifier from synergies, feats, and ability modifiers, a roll of 9 gives you a 25, a 14 gives you a 30). A 7th level character can achieve this by maxing ranks in his favorite skills. With the Perform skill, a 25 is considered a “memorable performance,” worthy of the attention of nobles. A 30 is an “extraordinary performance,” worthy of the attention of extraplanar beings. Using the Tumble skill, a 25 enables you to tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so.
I consider 7th level characters to be approaching mastery at their particular area of expertise. However, for them to become true masters, they will require additional tutelage. Before gaining any more ranks in a skill above 10, the character must spend at least 1 month training with a “master” (must have at least 12 ranks, at least 9th level) of the appropriate skill. This is 8 hours/day, 5 days/week. For some skills (such as Knowledge skills), it may be acceptable to study books of advanced learning instead of learning from a master. The amount of time should still be the same.
Similar skills may be trained/studied together, as long as they share the same ability modifier, and the master has at least 12 ranks in each skill. For instance, a 9th level Ranger could train a character in the Listen and Spot skills simultaneously, but not Hide (since its ability modifier is Dex, not Wis). A book with multiple subjects (such as Knowledge arcana and planes) could serve the same purpose. Two such skills can be learned in 1 month. Each similar skill above 2 requires an additional 2 weeks. Thus the 9th level Ranger could train a character in the Listen, Spot, and Survival skills in 1 ½ months. A wizard could learn the Knowledge skills arcana, history, and planes in the same amount of time (assuming he had access to the appropriate books).
With 18 ranks in a skill (15th level or higher), a character can begin to accomplish “nearly impossible” tasks (assume a +8 skill check modifier, requires a d20 roll of 14 to get a 40). Once again, before gaining any ranks in a skill above 18, the character must train with an “expert” (must have 20 ranks, at least 17th level) of the appropriate skill. This requires twice as much time – at least 2 months full time – and more than 1 skill cannot be trained at once. Studying books may again be an acceptable substitute, although books with the appropriate level of information will be extremely difficult to find or gain access to.
Now...While I think this is a pretty good alternative, I thought about it some and took it a step further. With the previous house rule in mind, here is what I have come up with:
Skill ranks 1-10 are "free", as per the PHB. This can be accomplished by character level 7.
For every skill level above 10, a Stat Check (we can also call it a Learning Check) must be made, with the DC equal to the new skill level. Each roll requires 1 week of the character actively attempting to learn this skill. This can be by reading suitable material around the campfire, declaring active use of the skill during party downtime, or seeking a trainer of sorts.
For every skill level that exceeds the PC's relevant stat, add 1 to the DC for every skill level the skill exceeds the stat. Example: Normally, to gain a skill level 12, the DC is 12. If the stat is Cha, and the fighter in question only has a Cha of 8, the DC for this roll is 16 (12 + 4 points exceeding stat).
No skill can be trained higher than double the relevant stat, so a Fighter with a Cha of 8 couldnt get more than 16 skill ranks in Intimidate, for example.
Every additional week after the first that is spent training will give the player a +1 to the skill roll.
Every Learning Check made, whether a success or failure, will "erase" any time put into learning the skill. Time must be reacquired before making another roll.
No stat may be modified for purposes of this learning check, ie Owl's Wisdom and a Periapt of Wisdom do not add to the WIS stat when attempting to learn Heal, for example.
Example:
Our level 7 Cleric friend has a Wis of 16. He has learned Heal (a Wisdom-based skill) to 10 skill ranks, giving him a +13 on skill checks.
At level 8, he desires to advance the skill to 11. He has anticipated this and so has purchased a handbook of healing practices and studies diligently at the campfire each night. At the end of a week, he makes a Learning Check. With a DC of 11, he rolls a d20 and adds his +3 Wis bonus, and so will succeed on a roll of 8 or higher. If he fails, he must spend another week studying before getting to roll again.
This same cleric has advanced to level 15, and is hoping to improve Heal to 18. His Wis has increased to 17. Having been in town for some time, he has made arrangements to study alongside a local well known doctor. Because he doesnt want to waste precious time missing rolls, he spends 4 weeks with the doctor before attempting the skill check.
The DC is 19 (the desired skill level, 18, plus 1 because his Wis is only 17). His learning roll is a d20 + 3 (Wis bonus) +3 (3 extra weeks spent learning). He will need to roll an 13 to succeed.
And there it is. I've done this to make skills "worth" more to the players, and to keep the crazy high rolls a little more on the manageable side. Please give your comments and opinions. I havent implemented this yet, and would like to know your thoughts.
I havent even touched on the idea of limiting skill advancement in a secondary class (a 10th level wizard choosing to be a rogue at lvl 11, and suddenly having a huge Pick Locks skill because he took 1 level of a class). That's a rant for another post
Thanks.
Kealios
When plannning dungeons and encounters and the like, I have to get rediculously creative if I have any hope of even remotely challenging the rogue with his high skills in search, pick locks, etc...and have similar situations for the physical skills with warriors, social skills of bards and sorcerers, etc.
As a result, I have been looking into ways to limit the player's ability to gain skill ranks quickly. I dont do this to punish the player, although it might appear as such, but rather an attempt to maintain balance with skills and DC's of sorts. Yes, level 12 is SUPER powerful compared to the rest of the world, but it shouldnt be so challenging to challenge even a moderately-equipped character on a day to day basis.
A friend, who runs in my game and is currently planning the campaign that will succeed mine when it wraps up in the next few months, put together this idea for skill advancement.
Table: Difficulty Class Examples
Difficulty (DC) Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)
With 10 ranks in a skill, a d20 (plus appropriate modifiers) can easily result in a “heroic” action (assuming +6 modifier from synergies, feats, and ability modifiers, a roll of 9 gives you a 25, a 14 gives you a 30). A 7th level character can achieve this by maxing ranks in his favorite skills. With the Perform skill, a 25 is considered a “memorable performance,” worthy of the attention of nobles. A 30 is an “extraordinary performance,” worthy of the attention of extraplanar beings. Using the Tumble skill, a 25 enables you to tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so.
I consider 7th level characters to be approaching mastery at their particular area of expertise. However, for them to become true masters, they will require additional tutelage. Before gaining any more ranks in a skill above 10, the character must spend at least 1 month training with a “master” (must have at least 12 ranks, at least 9th level) of the appropriate skill. This is 8 hours/day, 5 days/week. For some skills (such as Knowledge skills), it may be acceptable to study books of advanced learning instead of learning from a master. The amount of time should still be the same.
Similar skills may be trained/studied together, as long as they share the same ability modifier, and the master has at least 12 ranks in each skill. For instance, a 9th level Ranger could train a character in the Listen and Spot skills simultaneously, but not Hide (since its ability modifier is Dex, not Wis). A book with multiple subjects (such as Knowledge arcana and planes) could serve the same purpose. Two such skills can be learned in 1 month. Each similar skill above 2 requires an additional 2 weeks. Thus the 9th level Ranger could train a character in the Listen, Spot, and Survival skills in 1 ½ months. A wizard could learn the Knowledge skills arcana, history, and planes in the same amount of time (assuming he had access to the appropriate books).
With 18 ranks in a skill (15th level or higher), a character can begin to accomplish “nearly impossible” tasks (assume a +8 skill check modifier, requires a d20 roll of 14 to get a 40). Once again, before gaining any ranks in a skill above 18, the character must train with an “expert” (must have 20 ranks, at least 17th level) of the appropriate skill. This requires twice as much time – at least 2 months full time – and more than 1 skill cannot be trained at once. Studying books may again be an acceptable substitute, although books with the appropriate level of information will be extremely difficult to find or gain access to.
Now...While I think this is a pretty good alternative, I thought about it some and took it a step further. With the previous house rule in mind, here is what I have come up with:
Skill ranks 1-10 are "free", as per the PHB. This can be accomplished by character level 7.
For every skill level above 10, a Stat Check (we can also call it a Learning Check) must be made, with the DC equal to the new skill level. Each roll requires 1 week of the character actively attempting to learn this skill. This can be by reading suitable material around the campfire, declaring active use of the skill during party downtime, or seeking a trainer of sorts.
For every skill level that exceeds the PC's relevant stat, add 1 to the DC for every skill level the skill exceeds the stat. Example: Normally, to gain a skill level 12, the DC is 12. If the stat is Cha, and the fighter in question only has a Cha of 8, the DC for this roll is 16 (12 + 4 points exceeding stat).
No skill can be trained higher than double the relevant stat, so a Fighter with a Cha of 8 couldnt get more than 16 skill ranks in Intimidate, for example.
Every additional week after the first that is spent training will give the player a +1 to the skill roll.
Every Learning Check made, whether a success or failure, will "erase" any time put into learning the skill. Time must be reacquired before making another roll.
No stat may be modified for purposes of this learning check, ie Owl's Wisdom and a Periapt of Wisdom do not add to the WIS stat when attempting to learn Heal, for example.
Example:
Our level 7 Cleric friend has a Wis of 16. He has learned Heal (a Wisdom-based skill) to 10 skill ranks, giving him a +13 on skill checks.
At level 8, he desires to advance the skill to 11. He has anticipated this and so has purchased a handbook of healing practices and studies diligently at the campfire each night. At the end of a week, he makes a Learning Check. With a DC of 11, he rolls a d20 and adds his +3 Wis bonus, and so will succeed on a roll of 8 or higher. If he fails, he must spend another week studying before getting to roll again.
This same cleric has advanced to level 15, and is hoping to improve Heal to 18. His Wis has increased to 17. Having been in town for some time, he has made arrangements to study alongside a local well known doctor. Because he doesnt want to waste precious time missing rolls, he spends 4 weeks with the doctor before attempting the skill check.
The DC is 19 (the desired skill level, 18, plus 1 because his Wis is only 17). His learning roll is a d20 + 3 (Wis bonus) +3 (3 extra weeks spent learning). He will need to roll an 13 to succeed.
And there it is. I've done this to make skills "worth" more to the players, and to keep the crazy high rolls a little more on the manageable side. Please give your comments and opinions. I havent implemented this yet, and would like to know your thoughts.
I havent even touched on the idea of limiting skill advancement in a secondary class (a 10th level wizard choosing to be a rogue at lvl 11, and suddenly having a huge Pick Locks skill because he took 1 level of a class). That's a rant for another post
Thanks.
Kealios
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