A critique and review of the Fighter class

[tetrasodium]

So? I already hit off the board accurate steady freddy, its not valuable to get 2 of them not really excepting the party has more than one fighter or your DM did the gold cost to level LOL
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I saw DMs provide whole levels worth of spell books the books of a defeated magic user as treasure. In practice... the random rolls too were fully optional as there was no reason given to not just give whatever Treasure a DM thought was appropriate (there was poor to non-existent instruction on why that might not actually be appropriate or when or what levels to give magic item x.)

The idea behind the bolded bit & why you needed more than one was because the weapon type wsas usually supposed to be random & the better odds gave you more chances to get one that was useful or even perfect. In practice almost every GM I've ever seen tends to simply decide the type of +N weapon is what one of the weapon users get while wands & spells on scrolls was often completely random unless there was a spell th GM wanted the group to have

edit: There's also +N elemental/ghost touch/etc weapons & handmedowns to other players as someone else noted

 

[HammerMan]

Anyways, I'm pretty sure after that, my DM switched to the "haha, no" school of thought. Or just picked out magic items to be found.

Not my story but one of my players used to play with a guy that used to say “oh that’s a reroll” and his go to story from 2e was a new player 1st time at table rolled for an item and got the aprratish of kewlash and when he asked what that was he was told “that’s a reroll, that’s what that is it’s a reroll”

 

[HammerMan]

The idea behind the bolded bit & why you needed more than one was because the weapon type wsas usually supposed to be random & the better odds gave you more chances to get one that was useful or even perfect. In practice almost every GM I've ever seen tends to simply decide the type of +N weapon is what one of the weapon users get while wands & spells on scrolls was often completely random unless there was a spell th GM wanted the group to have

edit: There's also +N elemental/ghost touch/etc weapons & handmedowns to other players as someone else noted

Again. If you roll the 1% that is a huge mage boost instead of a fighter boost it doesn’t matter if 99% boosted fighters cause the first item went to a better more powerful class

If more likely then not your DM just picked items based on the characters then mages got mage items and clerics got cleric items and fighters got fighter items

 

[James Gasik]

And of course, while magic weapons were common, there is still the possibility that the weapon isn't the type your Fighter had proficiency with, let alone specialization...

 

[HammerMan]

And of course, while magic weapons were common, there is still the possibility that the weapon isn't the type your Fighter had proficiency with, let alone specialization...

Yeah. “Gee my DM used random roll to balance” made specialization hard. “I’m weapon master in long sword and we rolled a short sword a kopesh and a broad sword”

 

[lingual]

Casters were very weirdly balanced in older editions. Magic-Users were very fragile since you needed a much high Dexterity to even get an AC bonus. AND that AC bonus did not count if you were casting a spell. Spells were pretty hard to cast as the casting times increased as the spells got more powerful. You take any damage that round and the spell would fizzle. At high level, magic resistance would factor in - which was very hard to overcome. If you got targeted, there was a very high chance that you (and even if you won initiative) - you would probably get hit and lose the spell slot. You basically had to win initiative by the casting time divided by six - and it was a 6 sided die for initiative. A fireball took 18bsefonds to cast. 5 low level Drow could easily destroy a high level wizard. The wizard really needed front line martials for protection.

You really did get the feeling you were were squishy and needed fighters to protect you. I do like the pseudo-Vancian and more "well rounded" approach of 5e - which gives players more freedom to pick classes without gimping the party.

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't have the 2e treasure tables handy but just checked the 3.5 ones & it's more than a bit disingenous to compare a +2 weapon to robe of the archmagi since +2 weapons aren't on table 7-29 major wondrous items where you can find total trash like a +5 tome.

Spoiler: Table 7-29

Item Market Price
Dimensional shackles 28,000 gp
Figurine of wondrous power, obsidian steed 28,500 gp
Drums of panic 30,000 gp
Ioun stone, orange 30,000 gp
Ioun stone, pale green prism 30,000 gp
Lantern of revealing 30,000 gp
Robe of blending 30,000 gp
Amulet of natural armor +4 32,000 gp
Amulet of proof against detection and location 35,000 gp
Carpet of flying, 5 ft. by 10 ft. 35,000 gp
Golem manual, iron 35,000 gp
Amulet of health +6 36,000 gp
Belt of giant Strength +6 36,000 gp
Bracers of armor +6 36,000 gp
Cloak of Charisma +6 36,000 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +6 36,000 gp
Headband of intellect +6 36,000 gp
Ioun stone, vibrant purple prism 36,000 gp
Pearl of power, 6th-level spell 36,000 gp
Periapt of Wisdom +6 36,000 gp
Scarab of protection 38,000 gp
Ioun stone, lavender and green ellipsoid 40,000 gp
Ring gates 40,000 gp
Crystal ball 42,000 gp
Golem manual, greater stone 44,000 gp
Orb of storms 48,000 gp
Boots of teleportation 49,000 gp
Bracers of armor +7 49,000 gp
Pearl of power, 7th-level spell 49,000 gp
Amulet of natural armor +5 50,000 gp
Cloak of displacement, major 50,000 gp
Crystal ball with see invisibility 50,000 gp
Horn of Valhalla 50,000 gp
Crystal ball with detect thoughts 51,000 gp
Carpet of flying, 6 ft. by 9 ft. 53,000 gp
Amulet of mighty fists +3 54,000 gp
Wings of flying 54,000 gp
Cloak of etherealness 55,000 gp
Daern’s instant fortress 55,000 gp
Manual of bodily health +2 55,000 gp
Manual of gainful exercise +2 55,000 gp
Manual of quickness in action +2 55,000 gp
Tome of clear thought +2 55,000 gp
Tome of leadership and influence +2 55,000 gp
Tome of understanding +2 55,000 gp
Eyes of charming 56,000 gp
Robe of stars 58,000 gp
Carpet of flying, 10 ft. by 10 ft. 60,000 gp
Darkskull 60,000 gp
Cube of force 62,000 gp
Bracers of armor +8 64,000 gp
Pearl of power, 8th-level spell 64,000 gp
Crystal ball with telepathy 70,000 gp
Horn of blasting, greater 70,000 gp
Pearl of power, two spells 70,000 gp
Helm of teleportation 73,500 gp
Gem of seeing 75,000 gp
Robe of the archmagi 75,000 gp
Mantle of faith 76,000 gp
Crystal ball with true seeing 80,000 gp
Pearl of power, 9th-level spell 81,000 gp
Well of many worlds 82,000 gp
Manual of bodily health +3 82,500 gp
Manual of gainful exercise +3 82,500 gp
Manual of quickness in action +3 82,500 gp
Tome of clear thought +3 82,500 gp
Tome of leadership and influence +3 82,500 gp
Tome of understanding +3 82,500 gp
Apparatus of Kwalish 90,000 gp
Mantle of spell resistance 90,000 gp
Mirror of opposition 92,000 gp
Strand of prayer beads, greater 95,800 gp
Amulet of mighty fists +4 96,000 gp
Eyes of petrification 98,000 gp
Bowl of commanding water elementals 100,000 gp
Brazier of commanding fire elementals 100,000 gp
Censer of controlling air elementals 100,000 gp
Stone of controlling earth elementals 100,000 gp
Manual of bodily health +4 110,000 gp
Manual of gainful exercise +4 110,000 gp
Manual of quickness in action +4 110,000 gp
Tome of clear thought +4 110,000 gp
Tome of leadership and influence +4 110,000 gp
Tome of understanding +4 110,000 gp
Amulet of the planes 120,000 gp
Robe of eyes 120,000 gp
Helm of brilliance 125,000 gp
Manual of bodily health +5 137,500 gp
Manual of gainful exercise +5 137,500 gp
Manual of quickness in action +5 137,500 gp
Tome of clear thought +5 137,500 gp
Tome of leadership and influence +5 137,500 gp
Tome of understanding +5 137,500 gp
Efreeti bottle 145,000 gp
Amulet of mighty fists +5 150,000 gp
Chaos diamond 160,000 gp
Cubic gate 164,000 gp
Iron flask 170,000 gp
Mirror of mental prowess 175,000 gp
Mirror of life trapping 200,000 gp

0
There is a staff of the magi but it doesn't appear to have a gp value for crafting or seem to show up on treasure tables*. In the 5e dmg the legendary robe of the archmagi is on dmg pg 194 but does not appear to be in the treasure tables. The merely rare +2 weapon on dmg pg213 is on 1-11 of table G which can be called as early as dmg137 treasure hoard challenge zero - 4 & hoard challenge 5-10.

* perhaps it's been too many years to find them

 

[Neonchameleon]

Even then you roll 3 times and 1 time comes up as a +2 sword and 1 time you get the robes they STILL get a better

As I mentioned the chance of a +2 sword was about 4.4%. The chance of Robes of the Archmagi was 0.03% - and that before the roll to see if they were the right colour for the magi in question to wear.

Yes, if you roll three times and one of those times comes up a 0.03% chance wizard item the wizard does better. Because they got a huge fluke. The main wizard categories were scrolls (15%; 21-35) and rods, staves, and wands (5%, 41-45) - and even then fighters got a few picks and clerics about a third of the table. And of the scrolls 37% were scrolls of protection, and a further 3% cursed. (Also only 70% of spells were for magic users with the rest for clerics and druids)

Was a scroll containing three spells as consistently useful as a +2 longsword? Probably not until +2 longswords became vendor trash.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And of course, while magic weapons were common, there is still the possibility that the weapon isn't the type your Fighter had proficiency with, let alone specialization...

There is a reason swords were a different table from miscellaneous weapons. The swords table explicitly says "70% of swords are longswords, 20% are broadswords, 5% are short (small) swords, 4% are bastard swords. 1% are two handed swords". That's pretty good odds for the sword & board fighter if they pick longsword - and even better if they've also managed broadswords.

Meanwhile for other weapons yes there was a problem. Other weapons were 87-00 on the tables (i.e. 14%) and clerics only got other weapons, not swords (huge overlooked balancing factor). 15% arrows, 9% axes, 3% battle axes, 5% crossbow bolts, , 3% bows, 3% crossbows, 12% daggers, 5% flails, 8% hammers, 3% javelins, 10% maces, 3% military picks, 3% morningstars, 5% scimitars, 1% slings, 8% spears, 2% cursed spears, 1% trident. And of those only the Mace +4 (1% chance) and the hammer +3, Dwarven Thrower (requires a dwarf to use properly), and Hammer of Thunderbolts (requires the wielder to be over 6' to use properly) were better than +3 weapons.

So yeah, pretty much all fighters picked longswords unless they had a specific weapon in mind that the group already had. The odds were very good.

 

[James Gasik]

Maybe that's why the three legendary weapons in White Plume Mountain were explicitly not long swords, lol, to make it less likely that anyone would want one. That the odds are stacked for magical weapons to be long swords, and worse, that some weapons simply cannot have a magical enchantment beyond +3, seems to be very strange, and the reasoning was never explained.

It was like "we have this huge table of possible weapons, but this one is the best one for almost all purposes, and oh by the way, two handed weapons and non-magical shields are a trap, you want to dual wield. Always."

Anyways, as to whether or not magical items catered to the Fighter more than other classes, I don't know. Priests and Rogues in 2e could use Belts of Giant Strength just as a Warrior class can, and most miscellaneous Wondrous Items are usable by all classes. That a magical weapon is more likely to be useful to a Warrior class than anyone else is a feature, I suppose, but most Scrolls, Wands and Staves are useless to a Fighter (Rangers and Paladins can get spells so might have more leeway here, though they have their own restrictions on how much stuff they can lug around).

And there's the flip side. Since most magic weapons are only useful to Warriors, any other magic items that come up will likely go to members of other classes first "yeah, I know those magic boots would be useful to you, but you just got that +3 longsword".