A critique and review of the Fighter class

[tetrasodium]

It would be interesting (I guess X months from now, after anyone would remember I said this) if someone made a thread where they stated, "Advice thread: I am not interested in the broader consensus on whether fighters overall need help. In my games, they do. I want to fix this. I'd love advice, including using house rules others might have in mind as fixes to the fighters, if they believe they need it (again, this is not the place to relitigate if that is needed for anywhere but my game)." and see what happens. I suspect people would eventually not help themselves, but before then, I suspect there could be a lot of analysis on potential solutions.

I'll bite! There needs to be (a lot) more information about your games & the group in question.
Some of it comes down to the player. One of my players right now has by far the highest charisma plus at least proficient with persuade in the party but is the absolute worst when it comes to functioning as the party face. The reason is simply because the player has some kind of social anxiety and goes deer in the headlights when social situations come up. A second player is pretty good socially but digs in & holds the game hostage wanting to drag out a social scene till his character is thrown out or the NPC simply walks away.


No0 amount of class features can do anything about either of those problems & any social pillar problem that leads back to a root cause like those is beyond the scope of class abilities.Is the player doing anything to actively shape things in their favor? This is a social/exploration pillar weakness root cause that again is somewhat beyond the scope of PC abilities & far more common today than it was in past editions for various reasons that go deep into the weeds.

• Take this for example: The party arrives in town after finishing their last quest. Bob the fighter feels like his character didn't have enough in common with the village elder/local noble/etc... does he A: silently sit back & wait for the plot to approach him? B: Suggest something like "Lets go to the local guard captain to report our success first & I can talk swords with him to see what else is going on before we go see the big guy for our pay" C: say "I want to go to the tavern & listen for [stuff to do]" D: something like one of the others E: something totally different I didn't consider
  • With A that's a player problem, excelling in social & exploration pillars requires some level of proactive dynamic characters. With B that's a great example of attempting to dynamically stack things with proactive measures,... why did it collapse & is the collapse because the GM shut it down simply because the module doesn't mention a guard captain or something? With C: that's like complaining a PC is bad at stealth & combat because they stood in whatever form of start point the adventure/dungeon has & nothing happened while the rest of the group went off to do cool stuff.
• I used social examples in the last point, but the same applies to exploration. Take an example like a pit/canyon that needs crossing
  • 5e gives everyone starter packs now so players don't need to learn that they should have things like rope & pitons torches & whatever. do they A: mention that they remember a big table/door/whatever a few rooms back & ask if maybe it's big enough that they could lay it down to make a bridge after using their high strength & athletics to carry it? B: Note they have/ask if anyone has rope & suggest using athletics to hold the rope so Alice can climb down (or vice versa) this side then climb up the other? C: suggest using the rope & a javelin as some kind of grapple? (possibly in conjunction with B to help the rest of the party cross after). D: declare the chasm is too big to jump or grouse about how the low ceiling makes it impossible to jump the sinkhole pit till a caster gives in & suggests burning a slot of spells like featherfall/levitate/etc? E: Note that they got a tool proficiency from their background/archetype(at least champion gives tool prof) & ask the GM if it seems reasonable to use their $specificProficiency to do things like construct a ladder/handholds/etc along the way down/up to help the others?
    • Every single one of those except D are things that most any fighter can do. The exceptions are things like
      • "I didn't take athletics because I wanted $otherSkill" There's not much extra features can do because athletics on a strength build or acrobatics on a dex build is almost as mandated as arcana on a wizard or thieve's tools on a rogue... What did they take? Sometimes the "problem" is simply that bob doesn't have the tools for this problem but might for the next.
      • "My background/archetype doesn't have a tool prof because I wanted one that gave me other things" Lets be honest those things are probably ones that excel in combat or things like intimidation if not "no we can ignore that because I'm an outlander/noble/etc"
    • Lets say they tried anything but D & it failed for reasons other than very bad luck in a system designed to almost guarantee success... how & why did it fail?
      • Is that failure some reason other than something like "well at the bottom there was a second problem & they gave up or some other character had skills better suited to the second problem"? If it isn't then that's like giving up on castle ravenloft because Strahd wasn't the first battle & frankly an unreasonable bar to be expecting one particular class to always be the one with the most optimal tools for any given job.

Back to things we would need to know in order to provide help with the "I want to fix this". The "problem" is not going to be self evident & even if it is there can be different ways of looking at it with wildly different or even conflicting solutions. Describe it in detail with specifics. Why can't they use the skill & tool proficiencies they already have with those specifics? What's the rest of the group makeup & give a bit of detail about the setting/campaign as it might be relevant to crafting a solution.

At the end of the day D&D is a team game & working with the rest of the group to shape & resolve problems can be a big part of that team aspect....

 

[HammerMan]

Yeah, an "out of combat" action surge mechanic and maybe a separate maneuver die pool for outside of combat - would go a long, long way!

Even something as simple as a list of 3-4 other short rest abilities you could take instead of action surge with at least 1 being each pillar.

I’m a perfect world the same could be done for indomitable and second wind.

It would not be a HUGE customization but it would be a great start.

The even better would be if the options could have higher level effects at higher levels.

The best part is it doesn’t have to be core. It can be a sidebar or a DMG add on option come 2024.

 

[Mort]

Even something as simple as a list of 3-4 other short rest abilities you could take instead of action surge with at least 1 being each pillar.

Yes, more options are generally good.

I’m a perfect world the same could be done for indomitable and second wind.

Indomitable should be reworded "Beginning at 9th level, if you fail a saving throw you can choose to succeed instead. You can't use this ability again until you have finished a long rest." IOW 1 use of legendary resistance.

I quite like 2nd wind, It's a decently powerful bonus action heal. It SHOULDN'T be "that" powerful because it's full on healing. And, yes, it could scale better. But I've seen it used and used well enough times that I'm fine with it.

It would not be a HUGE customization but it would be a great start.

The even better would be if the options could have higher level effects at higher levels.

The best part is it doesn’t have to be core. It can be a sidebar or a DMG add on option come 2024.

Yeah, they could just stick in a few optional rules for players that want them and DMs that are willing.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Really, 5e is such a lightweight system that all class abilities are pretty basic. Whatever your favorite class is, you are going to think it isn’t as cool, as epic, as it could be.

 

[HammerMan]

Back to things we would need to know in order to provide help with the "I want to fix this". The "problem" is not going to be self evident & even if it is there can be different ways of looking at it with wildly different or even conflicting solutions. Describe it in detail with specifics. Why can't they use the skill & tool proficiencies they already have with those specifics? What's the rest of the group makeup & give a bit of detail about the setting/campaign as it might be relevant to crafting a solution.

okay let try.

The campaign we are playing right now is going to end soonish, maybe about a month. So we are pitching and preping a new level 3 game.

My longest friend from middle school has played through 2nd 3rd 4th and now 5th with me and her favorite concept is the fighter. In 3e and 5e she fell away from it and that was a big reason D&D lost us for a bit. In 4e she exclusively played fighters and warlords.

As a group we try to run 1 out of 6 as a no full caster game so she and the rest of us can get some martial love in but when casters are in the table it is hard not to be one.

Now the game as pitched so far is based loosely on Star Wars and dune but no Star ships this is pure fantasy. We know little other then we are starting in a giant city on the edge of the worlds largest desert.

We will have better then average stats as a custom array I will find it if this goes anywhere. We will start at 3rd level and get 1 common and 1 uncommon magic item that we can pick

She will play a melee class no question. Her go to right now is bard and warlock but she has some cleric and paliden too. She would LOVE for me to come to her with an idea where she can do fighter instead of warlock (hex blade) so let’s try.

She is a bubbly talkitove woman who for her job needs to be what I call “on” at work. So depending on how hard of a day or if she worked at all she may be our best face with or without skills or just want to sit there and take “down” time from being the talker.

She is the smartest of this group when it comes to figuring out puzzles and when it comes to tactics.

Her and I both enjoy choices both at CC and at the table so the more the better.

So no matter what class her background her skills her tool sets will all come into play and I would say 2/3 or more of the time she will RP her heart out.

But this game will start at 3rd and I doubt it will run for 10 levels but it might it for sure will not go to 17th though.

So she can play a hex blade with spells and invocation and have the same skills and loose out on second wind action surge and 1hp on average. What can we pitch to her to make the fighter seem better?

I know already she will ask if she can refluff the spells and magic to be martial abilities. But let’s assume the DM will say no to that.

 

[HammerMan]

okay let try.

The campaign we are playing right now is going to end soonish, maybe about a month. So we are pitching and preping a new level 3 game.

My longest friend from middle school has played through 2nd 3rd 4th and now 5th with me and her favorite concept is the fighter. In 3e and 5e she fell away from it and that was a big reason D&D lost us for a bit. In 4e she exclusively played fighters and warlords.

As a group we try to run 1 out of 6 as a no full caster game so she and the rest of us can get some martial love in but when casters are in the table it is hard not to be one.

Now the game as pitched so far is based loosely on Star Wars and dune but no Star ships this is pure fantasy. We know little other then we are starting in a giant city on the edge of the worlds largest desert.

We will have better then average stats as a custom array I will find it if this goes anywhere. We will start at 3rd level and get 1 common and 1 uncommon magic item that we can pick

She will play a melee class no question. Her go to right now is bard and warlock but she has some cleric and paliden too. She would LOVE for me to come to her with an idea where she can do fighter instead of warlock (hex blade) so let’s try.

She is a bubbly talkitove woman who for her job needs to be what I call “on” at work. So depending on how hard of a day or if she worked at all she may be our best face with or without skills or just want to sit there and take “down” time from being the talker.

She is the smartest of this group when it comes to figuring out puzzles and when it comes to tactics.

Her and I both enjoy choices both at CC and at the table so the more the better.

So no matter what class her background her skills her tool sets will all come into play and I would say 2/3 or more of the time she will RP her heart out.

But this game will start at 3rd and I doubt it will run for 10 levels but it might it for sure will not go to 17th though.

So she can play a hex blade with spells and invocation and have the same skills and loose out on second wind action surge and 1hp on average. What can we pitch to her to make the fighter seem better?

I know already she will ask if she can refluff the spells and magic to be martial abilities. But let’s assume the DM will say no to that.

There are 4 of us total and we so far have a divine soul sorcerer who is either hexborn or reverent a mtn dwarf blade singer and I am going with either artificer or Druid I can not decide.

 

[James Gasik]

I guess ultimately, it comes down to "what do you want the Fighter to do."

For some, it seems to be "no frills weapon user who can have a strong AC, great hit points, passive abilities that are always available, with few decision points".

And the class as written in the 5e PHB accomplishes all of this.

I can't say specifically what others want, but here's the kind of things I'd want the Fighter to have (one or more):

*Tactical abilities. I'm not talking about the Battlemaster here. The Fighter should be able to work with their allies to use teamwork to efficiently deal with threats. More like the 3e Marshal than the 4e Warlord; the Fighter should have some ability to improve the tactics of their allies. Bonuses for flanking, or staying in close formation, or covering for the retreat of allies, etc..

I mean, the Wolf Totem Barbarian can grant allies advantage on attacks, but the Fighter can't? Seriously.

*Leadership abilities. Closely related, the Fighter should be a general, able to lead people into battle against overwhelming odds. A Fighter in charge of a platoon should be a force multiplier. But also, the Fighter should be the one people look to when they need a leader. This can be reflected in a bonus to social rolls, or saves against fear, or both.

*Weapon Mastery. If the Fighter is the master of weapons, then they should have abilities to let them quickly switch between weapons in combat, and to actually justify doing so! Currently the Fighter can be good at using a broad category of weapons, such as two handed weapons, two one handed weapons, a single one handed weapon, thrown weapons, or ranged weapons.

But there are times when one needs a spear, lance, mace, or sword, and there's almost no reason for a Fighter to just carry around the best weapon for a job. If a Fighter has a +1 hammer and a sword, he uses the hammer save for some odd corner cases.

And I'm not talking about specializing in a single weapon, that requires Feats, and thus, anyone can do that. The Fighter should be able to leverage their mastery of all weapons, to really drive the point home that they are the masters of war.

*Increased resilience. This used to be the hat of the Fighter and his Warrior cousins. Over time, this guy would prove to be very hard to do just about anything to, increasingly able to shrug off a wide variety of strange attacks and effects. Today, he's reduced to being good at shrugging off being pushed around, knocked prone, poisoned, diseased, or other esoteric threats to his body.

Outside of that, his resilience to area attacks and mental assault is based on his ability scores only, and over time, that is outweighed by the benefit of proficiency in a save. Indomitable doesn't cut it, as rerolling a poor save is pretty much a Hail Mary play. Sure, it doubles your chances, but that chance can still be 0% at high levels.

*Increased narrative agency. This is the hardest to figure out, but consider the party at the gates of Khazad-dum. The Rogue might try to pick the lock. The Cleric can call up on divine intervention. The Wizard can use knock or dimension door, or even bypass going through the Mines of Moria via fly or teleportation. The Fighter can...knock the door down through brute strength (maybe) or try to climb over the mountain.

Some people say this is the moment when it's ok to have the Fighter sit down and let other people do their things- but when does the Fighter get to tell everyone else to sit down and let them do theirs? It's surely not in combat, since everyone has a more or less equal role there.

*A good reason for casters to think "hey, let's use magic to buff this guy". In 3e, because of their fighting prowess, the Fighter was one of my go to targets for enlarge, aid, bull's strength, cat's grace, haste, fly, heroism, blur, displacement, blink, greater magic weapon, and the like.

Now, as previously mentioned, even if I can justify using such spells on the Fighter (if I even can, some of these spells are greatly changed), I might have a much more effective option instead.

What if the Fighter could concentrate on a beneficial spell that targets them instead of the caster? Seems pretty good...

 

[Bill Zebub]

okay let try.

The campaign we are playing right now is going to end soonish, maybe about a month. So we are pitching and preping a new level 3 game.

My longest friend from middle school has played through 2nd 3rd 4th and now 5th with me and her favorite concept is the fighter. In 3e and 5e she fell away from it and that was a big reason D&D lost us for a bit. In 4e she exclusively played fighters and warlords.

As a group we try to run 1 out of 6 as a no full caster game so she and the rest of us can get some martial love in but when casters are in the table it is hard not to be one.

Now the game as pitched so far is based loosely on Star Wars and dune but no Star ships this is pure fantasy. We know little other then we are starting in a giant city on the edge of the worlds largest desert.

We will have better then average stats as a custom array I will find it if this goes anywhere. We will start at 3rd level and get 1 common and 1 uncommon magic item that we can pick

She will play a melee class no question. Her go to right now is bard and warlock but she has some cleric and paliden too. She would LOVE for me to come to her with an idea where she can do fighter instead of warlock (hex blade) so let’s try.

She is a bubbly talkitove woman who for her job needs to be what I call “on” at work. So depending on how hard of a day or if she worked at all she may be our best face with or without skills or just want to sit there and take “down” time from being the talker.

She is the smartest of this group when it comes to figuring out puzzles and when it comes to tactics.

Her and I both enjoy choices both at CC and at the table so the more the better.

So no matter what class her background her skills her tool sets will all come into play and I would say 2/3 or more of the time she will RP her heart out.

But this game will start at 3rd and I doubt it will run for 10 levels but it might it for sure will not go to 17th though.

So she can play a hex blade with spells and invocation and have the same skills and loose out on second wind action surge and 1hp on average. What can we pitch to her to make the fighter seem better?

I know already she will ask if she can refluff the spells and magic to be martial abilities. But let’s assume the DM will say no to that.

I guess I don’t understand the point of this exercise. It doesn’t sound like she likes the feel of the 5e fighter, and another class would suit her better, so why try to persuade her otherwise?

 

[HammerMan]

I guess I don’t understand the point of this exercise. It doesn’t sound like she likes the feel of the 5e fighter, and another class would suit her better, so why try to persuade her otherwise?

Because someone asked me to give a detailed example of someone that wants to play a fighter but finds the mechanics don’t fit. @tetrasodium asked for details there they are.
Also the stat array is 17 15 15 13 11 11

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I guess ultimately, it comes down to "what do you want the Fighter to do."

I want the fighter to be a non magic character that can be a hero on par with Hercules odysseys and batman and black widow

And the class as written in the 5e PHB accomplishes all of this.

I can't say specifically what others want, but here's the kind of things I'd want the Fighter to have (one or more):

*Tactical abilities. I'm not talking about the Battlemaster here. The Fighter should be able to work with their allies to use teamwork to efficiently deal with threats. More like the 3e Marshal than the 4e Warlord; the Fighter should have some ability to improve the tactics of their allies. Bonuses for flanking, or staying in close formation, or covering for the retreat of allies, etc..

I mean, the Wolf Totem Barbarian can grant allies advantage on attacks, but the Fighter can't? Seriously.

*Leadership abilities. Closely related, the Fighter should be a general, able to lead people into battle against overwhelming odds. A Fighter in charge of a platoon should be a force multiplier. But also, the Fighter should be the one people look to when they need a leader. This can be reflected in a bonus to social rolls, or saves against fear, or both.

*Weapon Mastery. If the Fighter is the master of weapons, then they should have abilities to let them quickly switch between weapons in combat, and to actually justify doing so! Currently the Fighter can be good at using a broad category of weapons, such as two handed weapons, two one handed weapons, a single one handed weapon, thrown weapons, or ranged weapons.

But there are times when one needs a spear, lance, mace, or sword, and there's almost no reason for a Fighter to just carry around the best weapon for a job. If a Fighter has a +1 hammer and a sword, he uses the hammer save for some odd corner cases.

And I'm not talking about specializing in a single weapon, that requires Feats, and thus, anyone can do that. The Fighter should be able to leverage their mastery of all weapons, to really drive the point home that they are the masters of war.

*Increased resilience. This used to be the hat of the Fighter and his Warrior cousins. Over time, this guy would prove to be very hard to do just about anything to, increasingly able to shrug off a wide variety of strange attacks and effects. Today, he's reduced to being good at shrugging off being pushed around, knocked prone, poisoned, diseased, or other esoteric threats to his body.

Outside of that, his resilience to area attacks and mental assault is based on his ability scores only, and over time, that is outweighed by the benefit of proficiency in a save. Indomitable doesn't cut it, as rerolling a poor save is pretty much a Hail Mary play. Sure, it doubles your chances, but that chance can still be 0% at high levels.

*Increased narrative agency. This is the hardest to figure out, but consider the party at the gates of Khazad-dum. The Rogue might try to pick the lock. The Cleric can call up on divine intervention. The Wizard can use knock or dimension door, or even bypass going through the Mines of Moria via fly or teleportation. The Fighter can...knock the door down through brute strength (maybe) or try to climb over the mountain.

Some people say this is the moment when it's ok to have the Fighter sit down and let other people do their things- but when does the Fighter get to tell everyone else to sit down and let them do theirs? It's surely not in combat, since everyone has a more or less equal role there.

*A good reason for casters to think "hey, let's use magic to buff this guy". In 3e, because of their fighting prowess, the Fighter was one of my go to targets for enlarge, aid, bull's strength, cat's grace, haste, fly, heroism, blur, displacement, blink, greater magic weapon, and the like.

Now, as previously mentioned, even if I can justify using such spells on the Fighter (if I even can, some of these spells are greatly changed), I might have a much more effective option instead.

What if the Fighter could concentrate on a beneficial spell that targets them instead of the caster? Seems pretty good...

all of yourr examples are great