A critique and review of the Fighter class

[James Gasik]

The fact that they basically get a large pool of extra hit points, and even if they get forced out of wild shape, they can use the ability again makes Druids plenty tough. Though the worst thing I ever saw in game was a multiclassed Barbarian/Druid. Rage on top of Wild Shape is ridiculous!

EDIT: Ninja'd by Bill Zebub, lol.

 

[Minigiant]

this is the thing... a 15th level cleric can create a aura of anti magic, can control the weather, can cause an earth quake and create a super aura of holyness... 20th level fighter can do anything like that... they can hit well and take hits well.

a 15th level wizard knows 2 of the following: can hoard wilt an area, can cause an earthquake, create clone back ups, control weather, create a demiplane, force there will taking control of a monster, destroy someones mind, summon a super deadly cloud, create an imaginary maze to trap enemies, make themselves immune to a bunch of things, or with a word stun a 'relatively' weak creature.

and next level the wizard gets 2 more of those to know and both can swap everyday...

It's really less about what the fighter can or can't do and more that the fighter is told it is supposed to be the towny peasant brawler, terrifying mafia enforcer, romantic knight, fencing duke, fearsome jarl, princely general, chief's daughter, learned samurai, brave pirate captain, military sniper, magic archer, warden of the royal forest, wandering bladesman, city watch sergeant, elite shock trooper, detective of the police force, fireball swordsman, stomeskin swordsman, rune swordsmen, psi swordsman, echo swordsmen, and 30 other things that all have different capabilities.

 

[Minigiant]

I just want to know how a Druid of anything out tanks a fighter with D10s for hp second wind and evaision and uncanny dodge.

Tanking is the best part of Wild shape. You get 2 beast bubbles.

Now their damage sucks in animal form when choosing tanker beasts. So if you don't use the marking variant, a druid tank can easily be ignored.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Upthread I proposed this:

Hero Points
At 3rd level, select an ability score. When you fail a check (not attack roll or saving throw) with that ability, you may re-roll it. You may do this as many times as your proficiency bonus, and you regain all uses on a short rest. Whenever your proficiency bonus increases you may select an additional ability.

One of the reasons I like this, and am realizing that a reason some of you may NOT like it, is that it's highly generic and malleable: you can take the abilities in any order you want, and flavor their use however you like, to represent the skills/talents of any archetype.

But I think some people really like having abilities that are named and flavored to fit a specific archetype.

Is that right?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I just want to know how a Druid of anything out tanks a fighter with D10s for hp second wind and evaision and uncanny dodge.

it could be a case study... the fighter/rogue was dex/con/cha the druid was Wis/Con/CHa but then the druid could wild shape...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Upthread I proposed this:

Hero Points
At 3rd level, select an ability score. When you fail a check (not attack roll or saving throw) with that ability, you may re-roll it. You may do this as many times as your proficiency bonus, and you regain all uses on a short rest. Whenever your proficiency bonus increases you may select an additional ability.

One of the reasons I like this, and am realizing that a reason some of you may NOT like it, is that it's highly generic and malleable: you can take the abilities in any order you want, and flavor their use however you like, to represent the skills/talents of any archetype.

But I think some people really like having abilities that are named and flavored to fit a specific archetype.

Is that right?

yeah I LOVED the idea and suggested building off it a small suite of special abilities you could choose based on the stat choice that were social or exploration like dex giving you a climb speed or str giving you a big jump distance... and some that get better as you level

 

[Bill Zebub]

yeah I LOVED the idea and suggested building off it a small suite of special abilities you could choose based on the stat choice that were social or exploration like dex giving you a climb speed or str giving you a big jump distance... and some that get better as you level

Yeah that was my initial inclination because I really do love cool special abilities.

But…

At even just 3 choices per ability, that’s 18 special abilities, which is 1/2 to a full page of text, for one ability. That’s not really in the spirit of 5e (with an acknowledgement that a lot of posters essentially don’t like the spirit of 5e and would love to see it change.)

And if it gave just one ability for each ability score (for example, jumping distance for Str) it’s so specific that it defeats the purpose of a general purpose, flavor-however-you-like ability.

It seems to me that many/most/all of the kinds of special abilities one might design should really be in feats. One problem is that so many feats, especially of the original set, are so weak compared to the +2 ASI. But if the feats were better, that’s where this stuff belongs (imo).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To be fair, it's not just the fighter. Ranger and monk also have this issue.

I disagree here. Both those classes just need some fairly simple tweaking to the in the upper 1/3 of classes in 2 of the 3 pillars.
I’ll say it again, the Ranger is the one that should get Jack of All Trades.

The base class is lacking so the subclasses have to pick up the slack - most fail to do so.

Compare with Paladin, and (of course) Wizard. The base class is extremely strong, so while there IS clear difference in power between the subclasses, you will be fine no matter what subclass you end up with.

The fighter class has some nice early abilities (second wind and action surge) but is VERY sparce after that, other than extra, extra attacks. It relies too heavily on the subclasses and most don't boost it enough. As far as I'm aware, NONE boost it enough in the two non-combat pillars.

Yeah it’s very odd, as well, that you can’t really satisfying make the well rounded romantic knight using the fighter.

I really wonder if fighters should get an extra bonus tied directly to their background, somehow.

 

[Minigiant]

Upthread I proposed this:

Hero Points
At 3rd level, select an ability score. When you fail a check (not attack roll or saving throw) with that ability, you may re-roll it. You may do this as many times as your proficiency bonus, and you regain all uses on a short rest. Whenever your proficiency bonus increases you may select an additional ability.

One of the reasons I like this, and am realizing that a reason some of you may NOT like it, is that it's highly generic and malleable: you can take the abilities in any order you want, and flavor their use however you like, to represent the skills/talents of any archetype.

But I think some people really like having abilities that are named and flavored to fit a specific archetype.

Is that right?

I don't like it bcause it's too powerful and doesn't feel very fighter-y.

And that's because it's very simple and general use.

And that's my point. In order to make a buff brute, a fast duelist, a smart general, a perceptive guard,and a charming knight in the same class, you must either create a mechanical feature for each one OR you make a generic mechanic to cover them all that is likely too weak or too strong.

 

[Bill Zebub]

OR you make a generic mechanic to cover them all that is likely too weak or too strong.

The good news is this means it’s possible to be in the middle and get it just right.

(Not that I agree with your assessment, or at least that the general principle that it’s hard to design mechanics that are “just right” doesn’t especially apply in this case.)