A critique and review of the Fighter class

[Bill Zebub]

yeah... and that is STILL how we see it even as you KEEP posting that we should not...

No, I think you should see it however you like. I'm not sure what it adds to keep expressing it that way.

and since lots of people like it and lots of people don't and we have no way to put reliable numbers to either... what difference does that make?

None at all. That's what I'm saying. Let's talk about cool fighter ideas without checking identities at the door to make sure everybody agrees how bad the Fighter is (or isn't).

We had a dedicated thread to 'is popularity enough to say something should not be changed'... it cam out none of us are changing our minds

Is there some illusion (delusion?) here that if we shout enough on Enworld the WotC designers will notice and change the class?

I WISH that was true.

Wait...are you saying you wish that people who disagreed would leave the thread?

yeah giving 'pro tips' doesn't seem to be a great way to interpersonal communicate either.

This is one of those "to stop a thief, ask a thief" things: I suck at interpersonal communication and seemingly alienate people as a hobby. So, yeah, I'm a good resource on what not to do. When you find yourself thinking "That @Bill Zebub is an @$$hole..." don't do what I'm doing.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The fire bolt has a range of 120’ vs. the spear’s melee attack or 20’ range when thrown. That difference in range is a balancing factor.

The fighter is a melee character in part to protect the squishy wizard. If we want to compare range vs range then we're using an archer - which might only do d8+3 damage (again significantly better) but also gets +2 to hit (strictly better).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not disputing that the level 1 hexblade is OP (and cherry picked); the Hex Warrior abilities of medium armour, shield proficiency, and the Cha to hit and damage should sit on the Pact of the Blade; it's a patch that makes for a ludicrously good one level dip.

I'm not sure how it is cherry picked, but let me explain...
at out tables we have found that when someone wants to play a fighter (concept/fluff) they almost always go either Hex blade or one of the bard subclasses that get a second attack. Since it is what I watch people play that would WANT a 4e fighter or warlord that is what I go with.

I can do Bard or CLeric if you prefer... or Druid. at levels 1 and 2 I can't really do bladsinger wizard but 3rd+ I can.

And you underrate Second Wind - 6.5hp healed as a bonus action at L1 is definitely in Healing Word territory. The warlock is also weird in its casting; it's intended as a semi-caster.

second wind might equal a 1st level slot... Okay I can see that.

And I absolutely hope the 2024 reboot puts Hex Warrior onto the Pact of the Blade and errata's it off the hexblade. (Also keeping it away from paladins, bards, and sorcerers unless they want to go for three rather than one level).

I would prefer if every class just attacked with there best stat... I don't even mean 'fighter=str' i mean like if I build a 16 wis fighter I use my wisdom to hit and damage and we just have flavor text for "You keen insight and perception lets you strike"

WTF? 1d10 has a range of 1-10 and an average of 5.5. 1d6+5 has a range of 6-11 and an average of 8.5.

yes and 1 you need to be 5ft the other you can be 50+ ft (I say 50 not spell range cause it isn't often you have 100+ ft of room)

You generally get a new ability out of your extra feat. But yes there is an issue here.

the fighter gets 1 extra feat in the first 11 levels (where most play) and at that it is at best your 3rd best feat/asi for your character.

A fighter with a good subclass gets two big abilities at level 7 and 10 (and with a bad subclass doesn't) and a bonus at level 6. The fighter's fine in tier 2 - but I wouldn't go further than calling them fine and heavily dependent on their subclass (not that I mind heavy subclass dependence).

You know what those subclasses almost all have in common? magic or mystical abilities

 

[Irlo]

The fighter is a melee character in part to protect the squishy wizard. If we want to compare range vs range then we're using an archer - which might only do d8+3 damage (again significantly better) but also gets +2 to hit (strictly better).

Yes I get that, but you were incredulous about a poster’s statement about the huge range of the 1d10 magical attack. The poster was talking about the range of the spell, not the range of the potential die results. I’m just trying to clarify.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Actually, scratch all that.

I WISH that was true.

Yeah, I'll take that as a sign that this thread may best serve its therapeutic purpose by allowing it be an echo chamber. Have at it!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No, I think you should see it however you like. I'm not sure what it adds to keep expressing it that way.

because we believe it to be true... in our experience at our tables this has proven to be true/

None at all. That's what I'm saying. Let's talk about cool fighter ideas without checking identities at the door to make sure everybody agrees how bad the Fighter is (or isn't).

if you are not interested in the critique of others I don't know what to say...

Is there some illusion (delusion?) here that if we shout enough on Enworld the WotC designers will notice and change the class?

lucky that IS NOT what I have said or thought.
I speak here and tic tok and reddit and Facebook (and sometime twitter but not in like a year and a half) and in person at Cons and gamming stores. I try to encourage others that HAVE ALREADY had this problem to do the same.
I don't expect 1 place 1 small group of people to change anything... but as 4e proved (both pro and con) and what the current surveys and playtests show... is that WotC is in fact listening. Now am I going to get everything I want (I wish) no, but I see no reason to believe that talking about it HURTs the chance of change.

Wait...are you saying you wish that people who disagreed would leave the thread?

not at all I just wish they didn't come in just to argue, By all means share you experiences that are different... just don't dismiss those of us that have the issues.
Example... "It's not a real problem you just don't like it" is a weird flex... if we don't like it, it is a problem to us.

This is one of those "to stop a thief, ask a thief" things: I suck at interpersonal communication and seemingly alienate people as a hobby. So, yeah, I'm a good resource on what not to do. When you find yourself thinking "That @Bill Zebub is an @$$hole..." don't do what I'm doing.

 

[tetrasodium]

The fire bolt has a range of 120’ vs. the spear’s melee attack or 20’ range when thrown. That difference in range is a balancing factor.

Luckily a long bow is 1d8+dex mod with even greater 150/600 range. even better a +1 longbow will ignore any resist nonmagical/b/p/s while adding damage unlike that firebolt user that can not simply pick up a +1wand to add damage or ignore resist fire

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Luckily a long bow is 1d8+dex mod with even greater 150/600 range. even better a +1 longbow will ignore any resist nonmagical/b/p/s while adding damage unlike that firebolt user that can not simply pick up a +1wand to add damage or ignore resist fire

yes a fighter with a magical buff is better then a wizard without a magical buff.

 

[Garthanos]

The fighter is a melee character in part to protect the squishy wizard. If we want to compare range vs range then we're using an archer - which might only do d8+3 damage (again significantly better) but also gets +2 to hit (strictly better).

In theory... but practice the caster is better protecting with various spells that prevent enemy approach + shield and the like (and maybe minor level dips to get AC) while the fighter takes the archer role.

 

[Minigiant]

The thing is that the Tier 1 fighter is as good a hoplite or other fighter as you would expect from a tier 1 character. And perfectly capable of kicking the snot out of the non-martials, especially at levels 1-2 (with the exception of the Moon Druid at levels 2-4). If you are playing a tier 1 character you do not expect them to be hypercompetent - and a lot of caster concepts won't come together until tier 2 either

I expect a tier 1 fighter to use the best items of their style in the best manner available to them.

If a nation uses tier 1 hoplites then a tier 1 spear and shield infantry has to make sense as an option over a tier 1 sword and shield and a tier 1 axe and shield infantry.

By making spear 1d6, 5e made Tiers 1 spearman suboptimal to almost every martial, one handed weapon