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<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 5277908" data-attributes="member: 58197"><p>Yeah, I blinked a little at that. It does seem to be the case that 4E characters go negative more often than in previous editions, but teasing out why is difficult. As you say, hit points (and more importantly, hit point to damage ratios) have gone up, not down, in 4E*.</p><p></p><p>I think the main reason is the way negative hit points work. Before 4E, going negative was a seriously dangerous business. If you were playing by the rules as written, there was only a narrow buffer zone between "unconscious" and "dead." Even at first level, a solid crit could slam you down to -10 in one shot, and as you leveled up and damage output increased, that buffer zone narrowed to a sliver. So when PCs went negative, there was a fair likelihood they wouldn't get back up. A campaign that sent PCs into negative hit points frequently was going to see a pretty high casualty rate, and there was a strong incentive to do whatever was necessary to avoid it.</p><p></p><p>In 4E, however, the buffer zone grows as you level up, and there aren't nearly as many attacks that can take you all the way to negative bloodied in one go. In addition, you always have at least three rounds before dying, thanks to the death saves rule. As a result, going negative is a much less risky proposition. PCs are more willing to court it, and DMs can crank up the difficulty high enough to make it happen frequently without risk of a TPK.</p><p></p><p>Moreover, the "count up from zero" rule means that there is even an <em>incentive</em> to go negative. (For those not familiar with 4E, when you use a healing effect on a character at 0 or less hit points, all negative hit points are erased and <em>then</em> the healing effect is applied; you count up from zero, hence the name.) I have often seen leaders deliberately hold their healing powers until somebody drops, because you get more bang for your healing buck that way--positive hit points cost money, but negative hit points are free.</p><p></p><p>All that said, a 4E DM who wants to put the fear back into negative hit points has the tools to do so. All that's required is monsters willing to take an extra round and coup de grace fallen PCs. But the DMG actively discourages that, urging DMs to avoid attacking unconscious characters. It's emphatic enough that a novice DM of my acquaintance thought it was an actual rule.</p><p></p><p>[size=-2]*Well, not entirely. In absolute terms, high-level 3E tanks have more hit points than their 4E equivalents. Take a 10th-level fighter with a base Con of 14. In 3E, that fighter will likely have at least +2 Con from items, and will average 90 hit points or so. In 4E, the same fighter will have 73 hit points. However, the 3E fighter will also be dishing out multiple attacks per round with damage likely in the 15-20 range per hit, while the 4E fighter gets only one attack for the same amount.[/size]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 5277908, member: 58197"] Yeah, I blinked a little at that. It does seem to be the case that 4E characters go negative more often than in previous editions, but teasing out why is difficult. As you say, hit points (and more importantly, hit point to damage ratios) have gone up, not down, in 4E*. I think the main reason is the way negative hit points work. Before 4E, going negative was a seriously dangerous business. If you were playing by the rules as written, there was only a narrow buffer zone between "unconscious" and "dead." Even at first level, a solid crit could slam you down to -10 in one shot, and as you leveled up and damage output increased, that buffer zone narrowed to a sliver. So when PCs went negative, there was a fair likelihood they wouldn't get back up. A campaign that sent PCs into negative hit points frequently was going to see a pretty high casualty rate, and there was a strong incentive to do whatever was necessary to avoid it. In 4E, however, the buffer zone grows as you level up, and there aren't nearly as many attacks that can take you all the way to negative bloodied in one go. In addition, you always have at least three rounds before dying, thanks to the death saves rule. As a result, going negative is a much less risky proposition. PCs are more willing to court it, and DMs can crank up the difficulty high enough to make it happen frequently without risk of a TPK. Moreover, the "count up from zero" rule means that there is even an [i]incentive[/i] to go negative. (For those not familiar with 4E, when you use a healing effect on a character at 0 or less hit points, all negative hit points are erased and [i]then[/i] the healing effect is applied; you count up from zero, hence the name.) I have often seen leaders deliberately hold their healing powers until somebody drops, because you get more bang for your healing buck that way--positive hit points cost money, but negative hit points are free. All that said, a 4E DM who wants to put the fear back into negative hit points has the tools to do so. All that's required is monsters willing to take an extra round and coup de grace fallen PCs. But the DMG actively discourages that, urging DMs to avoid attacking unconscious characters. It's emphatic enough that a novice DM of my acquaintance thought it was an actual rule. [size=-2]*Well, not entirely. In absolute terms, high-level 3E tanks have more hit points than their 4E equivalents. Take a 10th-level fighter with a base Con of 14. In 3E, that fighter will likely have at least +2 Con from items, and will average 90 hit points or so. In 4E, the same fighter will have 73 hit points. However, the 3E fighter will also be dishing out multiple attacks per round with damage likely in the 15-20 range per hit, while the 4E fighter gets only one attack for the same amount.[/size] [/QUOTE]
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