A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.

Stalker0

Legend
A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.


I love to talk about game design, and I haven’t written a good article in a while, so I figured I would kill two birds with one stone and post this.
If it generates good discussion, I might even make a series of it.

Note I have also attached a word version of this that's easier to read for those who like that.

So without further ado, lets get started.

Defining the Subject: Do we have a problem?

What is the 15 minute workday? Everyone has their own personal version of the concept, but to generate a good discussion we need to define the concept specifically.

The 15 minute workday occurs when characters engage in an adventuring activity that drains them of resources in some way. This could be loss of health, expending of abilities, etc. Instead of continuing said activity, the character chooses to refrain from the activity in order to recover the lost resources. Done to an extreme, the character is said to only engage in adventuring activities for “15 minutes a day”.

Now the first question, is this actually a problem? If we question specific gaming groups, this varies quite a bit. Some groups may only have one combat or “adventuring activity” per day, per week, etc. To them this isn’t an issue at all. Some gaming groups have entire sections of campaign take place over the course of a few days, to them it can seem like quite a problem.

Ultimately to me, what defines this as a problem is the fact that a game system at its core, is designed to model archetypes. Since Dnd is traditionally a Tolkeinesque fantasy archetype, let’s consider it from that perspective. In many fantasy stories, the Hero will face countless challenges. Commonly, the hero will face one challenge after another. He doesn’t rest or stop, he keeps on fighting. He may face hoards of minions only to face his great nemesis immediately afterwards. Yet while realism would tell us the Hero at this point would be utterly exhausted and barely capable of fighting, often in the story he fights the villain with an even greater strength not yet seen.

A character that chooses to face danger again and again makes for a great story, and for many is a staple of the fantasy archetype. If the 15 minute workday is commonly occurring, that flies in the face of that archetype. That makes it a problem, or at the very least, a concern that should be looked at.

The Problem is Incentive
Note that in the section above I bolded the fact that the player is choosing to cause the 15 minute workday, this is not some high decree from the DM.
When it comes to choices, incentive plays a key role. And since so much of what makes an rpg is the player’s ability to choose his actions…incentive becomes a critical factor in any game design. To that end, this is my personal take on the subject.

Stalker0’s Credos of Good Game Design: A modest gaming system allows the playing of an archetype. A great one provides incentive to do so.


I applaud anyone who is willing to act in character for no better reason than it is in character. But to me, what is even better is if the system provides the mechanical benefit for acting in character. Now not only does the player feel good because he is playing the spirit of his character (the flavor) but he feels good because he is enjoying tangible rewards (the mechanics).
With this is mind, the real problem with the 15 minute workday is a conflict in Incentives, which is the following.


Incentive 1: I want my character to act bravely and heroically.
VS
Incentive 2: I want my character to be strong and powerful.

The first incentive encourages a player to fight, and then bravely face the next challenge even if he is wounded, drained of resources, etc.
The second incentive encourages a player away from adventuring. Players want to feel powerful, and for many games, dnd included, the character is at its strongest right at the beginning of the day. Adventuring actually drains a character’s resources (making it weaker) while resting replenishes resources (making it stronger).

Within every player this conflict arises to its own degree. A player may choose one incentive over the other, but there is always that small inner hesitation and regret at having to give up one to have the other. And hence, the problem is born.

4th Edition: Handling the Problem
While I’ve played in several gaming systems now, since most of us are dnd players or have experience with it I will use it as a baseline for the discussion.
The designers of 4th edition recognized the issue with the 15 minute work day, and built mechanics into their system to correct it.
The major points:
1) Always on abilities (at-will powers)
2) Encounter based recovery of abilities (encounter powers)
3) Encounter based recovery of wounds (healing surges).
These three points are designed straight at incentive 2. In each fight a character loses resources. However, at the end of the fight, he gets some or all of those resources back. Furthermore, at will powers ensure that no matter how many encounters a character has, he will always have some “cool abilities” to fall back on.

Overall, this is a move in the right direction as far as rebalancing the incentives go. However, it only goes so far. The system is fixing the issue by “removing the stick”. A player is still getting weaker by adventuring (losing surges, losing dailies) just not as much. So the system isn’t encouraging the player to adventure more heroically…its just not punishing him as much.
That’s good….but it could be even better.

Finding the Perfect Answer
In the last section we talked about stick incentives. 4th edition has eased up on a stick somewhat in order to prevent the 15 minute adventuring day.
So what if we go even further…how about no stick at all? What if we made it so that a character was fully recovered after every encounter. Now a character is always at its maximum power no matter how many fights he goes through. We no longer have to worry about appeasing incentive 2, a player can act as heroically as he wants and never feel that his character is getting weaker. Problem solved right?

The problem is solved…but the answer creates its own set of problems. First of all, it cuts down on variety. If my character is literally reset every fight then things can get very repetitive. Second, we have to remember that for many people allowing their character to “nova” (using a lot of expendable resources in short order) is a way to feel that strength and power that is Incentive 2. And let’s not forget that another heroic archetype is when the hero “gives it all he’s got”. It’s hard to do that when you get everything you just gave right back 5 minutes later”

So stick isn’t the answer, lets turn to the carrot. How do we get our two incentives to work together instead of against each other. The general answer is the following:

A character should gain strength and power over multiple encounters.

Written like that, the answer seems pretty simple. If my character actually GAINS power from multiple fights and encounters, then suddenly my two incentives reinforce each other. On the one side, I get to act like a hero, playing out all the fantasy stories I’ve read and heard about. On the other, now I get play a character whose always powerful, in fact, may even be more powerful the more heroic I am!

Suddenly resting becomes the enemy, and adventuring the cure. With this concept, a DM no longer has to encourage his players to act in a heroic manner, now the system takes care of that.

However, we don’t want to take this concept too much to the extreme either. For our more realist gamers out there, having a character who is straight up more powerful after three grueling fights doesn’t make a lot of sense either.

So how do we put this concept into practice? We will look at 4th edition again to apply our new concept.

What’s interesting is, 4th edition has already created this concept…they just didn’t use it very much. The concept is the milestone.

The milestone itself doesn’t do anything, however, it is the things that are based on it. Action Points are the first things to come to mind, but they are not a good example. You gain an action point every milestone…but you always get 1 for resting. So again less stick, but no real carrot. However, there are some magic items that are based on milestones.

My favorite one is an armor that gets +1 AC every milestone. So lets take a fighter that has accomplished a grueling 6 combats in a single day. He’s low on dailies, low on healing surges, and definitely has a good incentive to rest. However, he now has this special +3 to AC that he couldn’t get anywhere else. He may in fact now have the highest AC he has ever had…which will go away once he takes a full rest. The fighter has lost power in one way, but gained it in another.

The problem in my opinion is that 4th edition doesn’t really use this wonderful concept for all its worth. What if more things were based on milestones? What if certain powers or feats got better with milestones…or paragon path abilities? What if certain really cool abilities could only be used after you had obtained a milestone?

If we increased the number of power sources for characters that were based on milestones, it would allow a character to compensate for their loss of power in new and interesting ways. A player would lose some resources by adventuring but gain new ones. Overall the player can choose to play his character with the flavor he wants, and the system is behind him, not against him.

Finale
I hoped you enjoyed the article and that it generates some good discussion.
 

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FireLance

Legend
Good topic, and good analysis! :)

Some time ago, I came up with the idea of milestone feats (link to blog post here) which are intended to encourage characters to conserve their daily powers and to continue adventuring. This may involve one or more of the following:

1. The feat may provide a bonus that increases with every milestone.

2. The feat may grant a milestone ability after the character first reaches a milestone after taking an extended rest. Usually, such abilities can only be used once per milestone, and are refreshed when the character reaches subsequent milestones. If the character does not use a once per milestone ability before he reaches another milestone, the previous use of the milestone ability is lost. Milestone abilities are also lost when the character takes an extended rest.

3. The feat may provide an improvement to one of a character's daily powers that varies with the number of milestones reached. Such feats are also power enhancement feats.

Although I came up with a number of milestone feats for the paladin daily powers in the PH (see the link for some examples), I think this is something that should be directly built into the design of daily powers. After all, running out of daily powers is one of the key contributors to the "15 minute adventuring day". Anything that incentivises a character to delay the use of his daily powers would naturally increase the length of the adventuring day.
 

MortonStromgal

First Post
I don't really see it as a problem, especially if your comparing it to LOTR where traveling anywhere was slow. The problem I see is the notion of 5 encounters per day. To use LOTR again as a frame work you should have 1 fight, then a month or two passes before the next fight. Its not as exciting as the movies but if we are going John Woo, you shouldn't have to worry about resources at all, just let the cool abilities fly.
 

DragonLancer

First Post
I can't speak for 4E but I have found that this has become less and less a problem since starting running Pathfinder due to the constant 0-level spells. Usually my group is fond of stopping and resting because spellcasters run low rather quickly. Now they find that's not an issue as much.
 

As we've come to expect from Stalker0's analysis, this is insightful and interesting. That said, while beefing up milestones is one way to address the incentive mismatch, I think there may be other ways that would work better for some players/some groups. In particular, for people who want the feeling of the hero pushing on at the limits of endurance to accomplish the great deeds, replacing the lost resources with new resources doesn't get that feeling. It loses some of the versimilitude, and some of the sense of the struggle against adversity. Because the resources change, it does solve the variety problem--sometimes your magic armor is extra powerful, sometimes you have more dailies--but the goal is still to be at close to "full" resources for every encounter (or even increasing resources over time).

That suggests to me creating a different incentive: higher rewards for pushing on. In particular, if XP increases with each milestone (perhaps a cumulative 10% bonus per milestone reached before the encounter), players will have a strong incentive to push on a little bit further, even when their resources are depleted. To my mind, that incentive would better achieve the cinematic and heroic goals while still preserving the sense of danger and resource depletion.

Thoughts?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The milestone itself doesn’t do anything, however, it is the things that are based on it. Action Points are the first things to come to mind, but they are not a good example. You gain an action point every milestone…but you always get 1 for resting. So again less stick, but no real carrot. However, there are some magic items that are based on milestones.

Wait a second...

You start a day with an action point. You gain an action point for every milestone. If you take an extended rest, you lose all action points you gained, and are set back to one action point.

So, if you keep rolling, you can keep stacking up action points. if you stop and rest, you lose them. So, there is a carrot there.

I'd like to draw an analogy to the game I'm currently running - Classic Deadlands.

In Deadlands, you have Fate Chips. They come in three colors, and you get three random chips at the start of a session. Then, you get chips: when your Flaws get in your way, when you accomplish something major (like finding clues, or beating a bad guy) or whenever you do something cool that the GM wants to reward.

You can spend chips to soak wounds, or to aid your die rolls. If you don't use them for those, you can turn them in for the game's version of XP. In fact, turning in unused chips is the only way to get XP. These thigns are a great motivator for the players - when you have a stack of them to spend, you can do really cool stuff.

So, how to get D&D characters to stack up action points? Give them for the first milestone, and then for every individual encounter thereafter?
 

BlubSeabass

First Post
I'm currently running a kingmaker like pathfinder, which makes these heroic chain of events kind of hard. Some of the bigger dungeons could benefit from the milestones though.

I think the biggest charm of multiple encounters between resting is fighting on the line, with little more to spare, and death looking around the corner. The problem with this is that in most games, this always feels like fighting exhaustion. It just won't work so well anymore. They're always tired heroes, not brave heroes in critical situations. Milestones could certainly make the PC's more daring, waging resources against an unique bonus.
Maybe you could even go as far to make milestones into the battle, making the battle more decisive and concluding the longer it progresses. It was actually the charm of the pf inquistor.
 

Victim

First Post
Wait a second...

You start a day with an action point. You gain an action point for every milestone. If you take an extended rest, you lose all action points you gained, and are set back to one action point.

So, if you keep rolling, you can keep stacking up action points. if you stop and rest, you lose them. So, there is a carrot there.


So, how to get D&D characters to stack up action points? Give them for the first milestone, and then for every individual encounter thereafter?

There's a limit of one AP per encounter. So very few characters benefit from stacking up AP.

And if you rest after every encounter, you can use an AP every encounter. If you press on, you have a total AP per day of half the encounters plus 1. So you can use APs more often by resting.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
There's a limit of one AP per encounter. So very few characters benefit from stacking up AP.

So, we are talking about revisions or house-rules anyway - remove or lessen that limit.

In Deadlands, there are three colors of chips. You can use one of each on a single roll. They can spend them like water, if they wish. It means that in some encounters, the PCs can really pull out the stops if they want to win.

Of course, the bad guys get some chips, too, and there are some interactions in the economy. And it works pretty well.

Deadlands is hardly the only game that does this - the old Marvel Superheros had Karma Points that doubled as die-altering mechanic and XP. And old Shadowrun Karma and Good Karma works similarly as well.

Generally, if you spend it to survive, you don't advance as quickly, but you survive to advance at all. As a general design idea, it has merit.
 

Victim

First Post
Generally, if you spend it to survive, you don't advance as quickly, but you survive to advance at all. As a general design idea, it has merit.

As a mechanic, it creates disincentives to using your points to do cool stuff. And means that needing some extra luck to survive turns into fewer XP - leading into a sort of character growth death spiral.
 

Kurtomatic

First Post
I agree that encouraging hording of AP-like resources is to be avoided. What if you attached other rewards to milestones that accumulate through the 'adventuring day' (which may not actually be a narrative day; YMMV)?

In 4E terms, a milestone grants 1 AP and a daily item power. What if we kept track of milestones per day, and used a progression something like...

  • 1st Milestone: +1 AP, daily item power
  • 2nd Milestone: +1 AP, daily item power, recover 2 surges
  • 3rd Milestone: +1 AP, daily item power, recover 4 surges, recover 1 daily power
  • 4th Milestone: +1 AP, daily item power, recover 6 surges, recover all daily powers
After the fourth milestone, you straighten your clothes, kick Agent Smith's ass, and go home. Translate to taste with your chosen game's daily resources.
 
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LostSoul

Adventurer
I think if you made time an explicit character resource - even go to the lengths of putting "Days Spent In The Campaign" on the character sheet - that could make the 15-minute adventuring day an interesting choice.

Hypothetical, non-D&D game: You have an "In The Grid" meter on your PC sheet. For every hour that you spend "Hooked In" to the Grid, fill in a circle.

At 1, the Horu become aware of you.
At 3, the Horu can locate people you've talked to.
At 5, the Horu reverse one thing you've done.
At 7+, the Horu know where you are.

Obviously for D&D you'd want to make it different, but that's an example of how one can put time into the system and make it an explicit character resource. Basically you'd have PCs spend Time to do things - acquire XP, GP, social connections, retrain feats/skills/powers, make magic items, learn or create new spells, or any other character component.

This makes me think I need to develop a random death chart.

2d6
2 - Killed, body consumed, no chance for resurrection
3 - Killed, body left to decompose/rise as undead
4-5 - Tortured to death for 1d6 days
6-8 - Held for ransom/drained of blood for ritual components/kept as slave
9-11 - Held as sacrifice for foul ritual that takes place in 2d6 days
12 - Reverse Stockholm Syndrome
 


Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
I've been working on a concept similar in nature that I call "Heroic Push or Breakthrough" which gives benefits for fighting on through the pain, standing up when others would retreat, etc. An increased XP percentage on "deeper" battles into the day would probably solve a lot of the disinsentive problems I have heard discussed here and elsewhere. If a group fights past where an estimated fifty percent of their resources are used, they gain an additional fifty percent on that encounter's XP. So, too, would fighting on after sixty percent would gain sixty percent on that encounter's XP. I don't suggest giving it for lower percentages nor do I encourage allowing huge debates among the players though I do suggest allowing the players to ask what the DM thinks might be the current estimate of used resources (they should be on the same page as to how exhausted they truly are). If they think seventy percent is too much and wish to rest up to fifty percent before pushing on, the incentive at fifty remains available. At each ten percent increment (starting at fifty), the PC also gains a +1 (cumulative) to one type of die roll (to hit, damage, etc.) or a range increment or something similar. These can be tailored to the PC specialty. This does not need to be the same from encounter to encounter for any given PC. There is the chance that it can encourage reckless behavior but I consider that a plus.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
What is the 15 minute workday? Everyone has their own personal version of the concept, but to generate a good discussion we need to define the concept specifically.

The 15 minute workday occurs when characters engage in an adventuring activity that drains them of resources in some way. This could be loss of health, expending of abilities, etc. Instead of continuing said activity, the character chooses to refrain from the activity in order to recover the lost resources. Done to an extreme, the character is said to only engage in adventuring activities for “15 minutes a day”.

Now the first question, is this actually a problem? If we question specific gaming groups, this varies quite a bit. Some groups may only have one combat or “adventuring activity” per day, per week, etc. To them this isn’t an issue at all. Some gaming groups have entire sections of campaign take place over the course of a few days, to them it can seem like quite a problem.

My take on the 15 Minute Workday is this: it is not an artifact of the game, but rather, an artifact of playstyle.

I've been playing since 1977, in a variety of communities, in several states, in a variety of different RPGs and with literally scores of different players...and I've never seen it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying that it only exists under certain conditions.

And condition #1 is that the GM allows it to happen. Not once, not twice, but as a routine, which then becomes an expectation, thus leading to subconscious metagaming. The PCs "go nova", expending their energies with the knowledge that they'll be able to rest almost always at a time of greatest convenience to them.

In contrast, gamers of my acquaintance don't have that expectation, so don't play as if they can rest any old time. Instead of "going nova", PC's carefully manage their resources, always maintaining a reserve. For example, going through the 3.5 version of the ToEE, it wasn't uncommon for our party's mage to still have spells to cast after 5+ encounters. Which was a good thing because we (the Party) didn't determine when we got to rest- the campaign environment did...and there were times when we were retreating carrying one or another comrade from the field of battle. Sometimes harried as we went.

With this kind of playstyle, the proposed change reaaaaaally doesn't seem necessary. In fact, it is kind of anticlimactic.
 

Imperialus

Explorer
I think a lot of this problem comes from D&D's tradition of relatively static dungeons and adventures. If the PC's know that when they run away and rest things will stay largely the same once they get back there is little incentive not to make a tactical retreat and try again the next morning. If on the other hand there is a time crunch and the PC's need to move in, complete their objective and get the hell out before the dreck hits the fan then they'll do so. The length of time they spend actually hitting things is immaterial.

The other thing that probably contributes is the abilities and hitpoints that reset like clockwork, once a day, once an encounter ect.

Just for example, I play a lot of Shadowrun. A typical 'run' looks like this:

1) Get the job, takes less than an hour in game and around the table.

2) do some legwork, plan for how to approach the target. (this typically takes an entire session). This will sometimes last 2 or 3 days of gametime, focused mostly on social skills, contacts, and other 'soft' attributes. Sometimes a minor firefight or other scuffle but typically of the low risk sort unless they do something stupid.

3) Do the run, this will sometimes span multiple sessions but for the PC's almost everything happens in less than an hour. Once they commit, it's almost impossible to extract and come back for another kick at the can. Heck, once they 'go loud' their adventuring day had better get a lot shorter than 15 minutes, because in less than 10 there will be corporate computer guys sealing the building, tracking them IDing them, feeding their locations to the fast response team that is choppering in from offsite, and the bound spirits getting sent to the location, all sorts of nasty crap. The longer the PC's spend onsite the more and more difficult it becomes for them to get out again.

4) Get paid, recuperate, and all that good stuff. Often lasts a couple weeks in game, and mostly takes place between sessions via email.

Edge, which fills a similar role in Shadowrun as AP do in D&D is the only resource that 'refreshes', and it does so over the course of the PC's downtime. If there is no downtime (of several days at least) there is no edge refresh. Damage in Shadowrun also heals significantly slower than in D&D, getting the crap kicked out of you can take the wind out of your sails for days, sometimes weeks.
 

Starfox

Adventurer
Before reading the thread, here are my views (I might come back and comment once having read it trough).

The reason to have dailies and other consumables is one of pacing. You want a variable pacing, where some fights are "big" fights and require that you use all your powers, while others are "small" fights and can run on only non-deletable resources. This gives the players a bit of control on how to run their resources. If they burn their all in the first fight, we get the 15 minute adventuring day. And in many cases, such as static dungeons/tombs, there really is no in-character reason no to. Rations come cheap.

To me this is not a satisfactory solution. I prefer a system where you build up your tactical options during the fight. In a short "small" fight you never get to use your big guns, simply because the fight is too short.

In 4E terms, this could be as simple as saying that the number of dailies you can use in a fight is determined by the length of the fight in rounds; you gain one daily item usage on round 3, another in round 8, and then every second round from that point out. Of course this might not work with 4E straight away - many dailies are designed to be used at the beginning of the encounter. But I think you all get my drift.
 

Starfox

Adventurer
In Deadlands, you have Fate Chips. They come in three colors, and you get three random chips at the start of a session. Then, you get chips: when your Flaws get in your way, when you accomplish something major (like finding clues, or beating a bad guy) or whenever you do something cool that the GM wants to reward.

You can spend chips to soak wounds, or to aid your die rolls. If you don't use them for those, you can turn them in for the game's version of XP. In fact, turning in unused chips is the only way to get XP. These thigns are a great motivator for the players - when you have a stack of them to spend, you can do really cool stuff.

Running Deadlands (and more recently Mutants and Masterminds) where the GM is supposed to hand out hero point rewards, I find that this never happened or only happened to the more charismatic (or nagging) players. The GM is busy enough as it considering what HIS team is doing - having to act as a judge of the fun-ness of the PCs action simply didn't work out at our table. Your experiences on this may vary, of course.

TORG had a somewhat similar system called Possibilities. These were both hero points and experience points. You literally burned your own reward during missions. I ran TORG for several years, and after a while I changed this rule - no more possibility -> Xp conversion. The reason was that the timid players and wallflowers ended up spending a lot less possibilities, and thus gaining much more xp, than the active, heroic ones.
 

arscott

First Post
My take on the 15 Minute Workday is this: it is not an artifact of the game, but rather, an artifact of playstyle.

<snip>

With this kind of playstyle, the proposed change reaaaaaally doesn't seem necessary. In fact, it is kind of anticlimactic.
But shouldn't D&D support a variety of playstyles? Adventure pacing is a major tool in the DM's arsenal, and when a ruleset dictates itself to a certain sort of pacing, you're hindering the DM's ability to make the game more fun.

Really, I think the best solution is to ditch the correlation between character powers and game-world time. Instead, treat "per day" abilities as "per session" instead. Absent very short or very long sessions, it works great--no 15 minute adventuring days because there's not as much benefit to resting. Games that feature lots of weaker encounters can just use a few "per session" resources each fight, while games that feature just a few, more challenging encounters will see the players bring their A game to every fight.

Running Deadlands (and more recently Mutants and Masterminds) where the GM is supposed to hand out hero point rewards, I find that this never happened or only happened to the more charismatic (or nagging) players. The GM is busy enough as it considering what HIS team is doing - having to act as a judge of the fun-ness of the PCs action simply didn't work out at our table. Your experiences on this may vary, of course.
The new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay handles this really nicely. It's game-effecting reward is called fortune points.

Whenever the GM decides that a player has earned a reward, he puts a fortune point into a "party fortune pool" instead of giving it to an individual player. When the party pool has fortune equal to the number of players, each player can take one from the pool.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
Running Deadlands (and more recently Mutants and Masterminds) where the GM is supposed to hand out hero point rewards, I find that this never happened or only happened to the more charismatic (or nagging) players. The GM is busy enough as it considering what HIS team is doing - having to act as a judge of the fun-ness of the PCs action simply didn't work out at our table. Your experiences on this may vary, of course.

I run Savage Worlds (the base system for Deadlands). I tell my players to let me know if another player should get a bennie for their actions, etc. As you note, sometimes its hard for the GM to deal with his stuff, the story, and hand out bennies fairly.

D&D's encounter design has not helped. The XP system (for those that still use it) push the DM to have every encounter meaningful from an XP perspective (challenging at least on a mild level). Savage Worlds, for example, awards XP based on what gets done in a session. So as the GM, I am libertated to make encounters that push the story vs. having enough encounters to get the PCs enough XP to level. If the story makes more sense to throw a horde of weak creatures at the PCs that really are not a challenge but it illustrates something in the plot, I do not have any "guilt" of it not being a true challenge. The PCs blow through it and move on.

It again shows Gygax's brilliance of linking XP to treasure (award) in 1e, which did not become appearant to me until I started playing Savage Worlds.
 

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