A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.

[Tuft]

Really, I think the best solution is to ditch the correlation between character powers and game-world time. Instead, treat "per day" abilities as "per session" instead. Absent very short or very long sessions, it works great--no 15 minute adventuring days because there's not as much benefit to resting. Games that feature lots of weaker encounters can just use a few "per session" resources each fight, while games that feature just a few, more challenging encounters will see the players bring their A game to every fight.

Oh, there are problems with per-session resources too. In a long-time Shadowrun campaign (Edition 1, 2, 3) I was playing in, one very important survival resource ("Karma Pool") renewed between session. I noticed how a very, well, "character-possessive" and dominant player started filibustering when she was low on that pool, and it was apparent that the DM wanted to run just one more encounter before the session was over. Suddenly everything needed to be questioned, clarified, discussed, etc...

 

[Uder]

It again shows Gygax's brilliance of linking XP to treasure (award) in 1e, which did not become appearant to me until I started playing Savage Worlds.

One major thing I noticed about this when I "went back" from 3.5 to systems that gave more xp for loot than encounters: wandering encounters became a penalty again. In 3.5 they're actually a reward, and trying to discourage the 15-minute workday with wandering monsters just starts the xp spiral. Coming back to 3.5 I've gone to only giving 10% xp for wandering monsters and encounters during rest periods... this somewhat discourages the 15-minute workday, and really discourages that old metagamey chestnut "Hey, we're just shy a few xp, can we just wander around and kill things until we level?"

 

[BlubSeabass]

Before reading the thread, here are my views (I might come back and comment once having read it trough).

The reason to have dailies and other consumables is one of pacing. You want a variable pacing, where some fights are "big" fights and require that you use all your powers, while others are "small" fights and can run on only non-deletable resources. This gives the players a bit of control on how to run their resources. If they burn their all in the first fight, we get the 15 minute adventuring day. And in many cases, such as static dungeons/tombs, there really is no in-character reason no to. Rations come cheap.

To me this is not a satisfactory solution. I prefer a system where you build up your tactical options during the fight. In a short "small" fight you never get to use your big guns, simply because the fight is too short.

In 4E terms, this could be as simple as saying that the number of dailies you can use in a fight is determined by the length of the fight in rounds; you gain one daily item usage on round 3, another in round 8, and then every second round from that point out. Of course this might not work with 4E straight away - many dailies are designed to be used at the beginning of the encounter. But I think you all get my drift.

I think resource management is an important part of most RPG's, and not giving them full control over their resources would probably be annoying. What if time is of the essence? Or the PC's want to go all out with their new powers? Resource management is part of strategy, and up to them.

That said, I also believe that these milestone bonusses should close to never give back resources. They should be an unique bonus, making the PC's feel more powerful, even though their resources are depleted. An extra +1 on Dodge AC, a +1 bonus on attack rolls or 1d6 extra bonus damage from energy type spells. These things will make the PC reconsider their rest. It's like making a combo or a chain in any game, and heroic flows of expertise story wise. The heroes become more alert, more cunning, and their mind is set on the battle field. Both are fun in my opinion.

 

[Storminator]

When I contemplate rules changes, I try to make sure I don't have rules that conflict with the Character Builder. That tool is so good that I don't like making new feats, powers, etc, that don't fit in.

So changes to when you can use Action Points are great, because they don't violate the CB - what if you can use more than one per encounter? Does that really break anything? One per round is probably a good limit - I can envision a triple attack that does some nasty stacking - but multiple AP rounds in a single fight are probably good.

I'm thinking of putting up a standard minor quest: complete 2 milestones, get some XP. I might also put up some sort of milestone bonus powers the group can choose from - +1 attack, +2 damage, that sort of thing. Interesting ideas...

PS

 

[S'mon]

It wasn't a problem in 1e-2e, and I've not seen it be a problem in 4e. It was really a problem of mid-high+ 3e, and arose from mid+ spellcasters being so dominant over other classes that their preferences dictated the pace.

 

[Ariosto]

Well, if you want to keep characters from getting worn out, then one option is simply not to take away in the first place what you then have to give back. You can make everything "at will".

If you want to have things usable only with a certain frequency, then changing one word makes it annually, monthly, weekly, daily, or hourly. You can as easily make it per minute or per six seconds.

Whether fighting means losing or gaining "hit points", one can just reset them at the end of the "scene" (or 4e "encounter", or whatever).

 

[MichaelSomething]

One of the reasons I have a blog is that it allow me to pre-write my opinion on common issues like this one! If you have a problem with a 15 minute day, give PCs incentives not to have a 15 minute day.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But shouldn't D&D support a variety of playstyles? Adventure pacing is a major tool in the DM's arsenal, and when a ruleset dictates itself to a certain sort of pacing, you're hindering the DM's ability to make the game more fun.

It does support a variety of playstyles.

However, making a new rule to "treat" a "problematic playstyle" is just going to affect options for other playstyles. For instance, humans often get a big charge out of succeeding against long odds, and that is one thing that pops up in the playtsyle I described above.

OTOH, if PCs got a "turbo boost" for forging on, rather than watching their resources dwindle over the course of the day, that wouldn't be quite as satisfying for many players like me and my buddies.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I like the idea of more XP per milestone, encourages risks for rewards... this will be less good with essentials PCs with no dailies.

From your extended rest keep a runnning total of XP, every milestone you go through means you get 10% more XP from that, so if you do 6 encounters you get 130% XP.. mmmmmm

 

[Starfox]

It again shows Gygax's brilliance of linking XP to treasure (award) in 1e, which did not become appearant to me until I started playing Savage Worlds.

Amen. 1ed got so much right.