A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.

[Starfox]

I'm thinking of putting up a standard minor quest: complete 2 milestones, get some XP. I might also put up some sort of milestone bonus powers the group can choose from - +1 attack, +2 damage, that sort of thing.

I find XP rewards work strangely on my players, and are not always encouraging. If you play 4.0, there are 30 levels. Once you've passed those 30 levels, the life of the character is effectively over. Well, some players want to keep playing their characters, and thus don't really want XP to come to quick.

Of course, XP are also "You Win" points and a universal reward to make players feel appreciated, aside from their effect on character advancement. That way, they work excellently as rewards.

Just musing. Don't take me too seriously.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Instead, treat "per day" abilities as "per session" instead.

Agreed. Per day resources are an artefact of earlier editions.

They work in the dungeon, where many challenging encounters are close together, but not outside of it. Per session resources otoh would work in both a dungeon and non-dungeon environment and are thus generally a superior mechanic.

 

[Gimby]

Theres an additional effect that causes the 15 minute day - arms racing with the DM.

If the game rewards "pre-buffing" strongly, then the availablity and duration of those effects will go a long way to determine your activity pattern. Importantly, if you start relying on those buffs then your DM may design encounters assuming that you are running all those buffs when you face them (this doesn't necessarilaly need tailored encounters either, simply the bad guys concentrating forces or running more of their own buffs). So you buff more to get an edge, and the DM makes harder encounters and so on.

For example in a high level 3.5 game I was in, my fighter would typically be polymorphed into a fire giant, stoneskinned, hasted, greater heroismed and protected from evil. (as well as an assortment of other things that I forget). We'd barely squeak through the encounter that we faced then retreat - we literally could not deal with another encounter on the same day and our operational time was limited by the 1 min/level durations of the critical spells.

We would have loved to push on, but the difference in capability between our buffed and unbuffed states was so extreme that to do so would have been suicudal.

 

[Storminator]

We would have loved to push on, but the difference in capability between our buffed and unbuffed states was so extreme that to do so would have been suicudal.

We saw that as well. We had a full page of spells that got cast on each PC for major fights, and when our foes did a scry/buff/teleport on us, the lack of buffs was pretty severe.

In one fight we even invented a special magic item to drop something like 40 buff spells on the party at once - something like 200K gp and a couple quests to complete. And when those spells wore off, it was time to get out of there!

PS

 

[Tuft]

Once you've passed those 30 levels, the life of the character is effectively over. Well, some players want to keep playing their characters, and thus don't really want XP to come to quick.

Yep, if you have a character you really, really like, the XP counter can become a Death Clock rather than a reward... especially in systems with level limits and/or sweet spots.

 

[Ariosto]

Per day resources are an artefact of earlier editions.

They work in the dungeon, where many challenging encounters are close together, but not outside of it.

That seems backwards to me. I thought the very problem (an "artifact of the new ethos", not a problem for us on wilderness or town adventures in an old edition) was that 4e encounters are potentially closer together than "dailies".

Per session resources otoh would work in both a dungeon and non-dungeon environment and are thus generally a superior mechanic.

The effect of per session resources would then depend on the number of encounters per session.

It would, I think, be a more direct corrective to make them per X number of encounters. That way, a long and briskly moving session does not penalize the players.

 

[Ariosto]

Theres an additional effect that causes the 15 minute day - arms racing with the DM.

Yeah. It used to be Monty, then came Monte.

For example ...

In one fight we even invented a special magic item to drop something like 40 buff spells on the party at once - something like 200K gp and a couple quests to complete.

I don't think gold is that much dearer in 3e than in old D&D.

 

[Jhaelen]

It again shows Gygax's brilliance of linking XP to treasure (award) in 1e, which did not become appearant to me until I started playing Savage Worlds.

I disagree. Rewarding XP for treasure encourages a play style I definitely do not enjoy (and, yes, we tried it!).

The best solution I've found so far: Don't award xp at all. Just let everyone gain a level when the time is right.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I think that town and wilderness encounters, assuming there's only a small number each day, probably one, are an example of the fifteen minute day problem. The Vancian casters can 'nova' becoming far more powerful than the non-Vancian classes.

Most of the D&D sessions I've played in haven't involved dungeons, instead there were one or two encounters per day and in that situation casters are OP.

Tbh the only time I've played pre-4e D&D where casters weren't OP was the computer game version of the ToEE. That's a dungeon, and there are lots of small encounters that the fighter-types can handle alone, with help from the cleric(s). You only really need the wizard, particularly his web and fireball, for the very tough encounters. It's the first, and only, time I've ever seen a wizard played as he's 'supposed' to be played, holding back, mostly just using a crossbow.

 

[Ariosto]

I think that town and wilderness encounters, assuming there's only a small number each day, probably one, are an example of the fifteen minute day problem. The Vancian casters can 'nova' becoming far more powerful than the non-Vancian classes.

And then they have shot the wad, and they are still balloons. And then they get popped because they encounter, and cannot evade, enemies that still have all arms to combine.

If such cozy assuming is not dangerous, then the DM is unclear on an essential concept.

Moreover, the very nature of the encounter may be more or less conducive to the spell-caster's forte. One limitation on power is not knowing what will be powerful, and so having to diversify.

I understand the 3e rules are a great big love-fest for spell-casters, but I don't understand why DMs think they need to give even more on a silver platter. Does this really make for a challenging game?