A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.

[jgbrowning]

Joe, don't you think the rules have some influence on the decisions the players make?

Yes. However, the players need to understand that no rules-set will be optimal for an rpg given the complete openess of "the game" and play their PCs as if they were there, not as if they are a collection of rules. Regardless what system they're using.

I was reading The Temple of Elemental Evil recently and there was a quote that cuts right to the heart of what I'm trying to say. [Advice to the DM] "In short - play each and every character and group as if you yourself were there."

Sometimes you would rest, sometimes you would continue on, and that decision isn't an easy one because the world moves on while you rest. If a group chooses the 15 minute work day as SOP they'll face consequences because the world moves on. If they don't rest, they'll face consequences because they are not as powerful were they to rest.

Neither of those states makes for "better" play because the game is the play. Not the winning or the losing or achieving a goal or failing. The game is the journey, not the destination. The game is the event, not the outcome of the event.

The GM is responsible to make his world a living world as best as he can. If he does that properly, sometimes resting is the better decision, but sometimes it's not. The GM should try to remain impartial and let the players do what they think best, regardless what the consequences that has upon his adventure, campaign, or world.

The desire to have X happen is something a GM should avoid at all costs. X may happen or it may not. If it does cool, if not cool. The GM needs to understand that he's not in control of the group in any way, the players are. The GM is in control of world.

And, as always, this is all IMO, of course.

joe b.

 

[Ariosto]

Party A signs up for a session. A typical one-day descent into the pits takes a week of game time. These guys, though, just poke along until the first wandering monsters, then bug out and take a couple of days to recover.

After the third go, they're docked another week of time -- which is all that's left before Party B's scheduled expedition into the same dungeons.

"Sorry, guys," the ref announces, "but your turn here is over until Party B get theirs."
"But we've scored hardly any points!"
"That's due to your choice in how to spend your time. If I can get Mike to co-DM, then we can run you simultaneously starting after B's first day in the depths. Otherwise, they will get the same amount of time that you squandered."

Party B on their first day bring out a good haul of treasure. Along the way, they use up some of the magic arrows, potions and scrolls they have found -- in service of acquiring more loot and experience points.

"We left some copper for you," they tell Party A. "There's even some silver behind a secret door, if you can find it. Since you lack magic weapons -- such as these we found today -- we'll warn you that there's a wraith in the blue chambers. It would be inconvenient if any of you were to join the haunting of those halls."

 

[I'm A Banana]

Across all systems here is the overarching problem with the 15 minute workday for me: An infinite resource can't be managed. Players aren't "managing" rests if there is no disincentive to rest. You aren't making a choice to rest, you are forced to rest by the rules.

Interesting.

If you're playing a more "cinematic" style, like a TV show or a movie, then you don't really concern yourself with LTRM (long-term resource management). You have the combat, and maybe the next one, and that's it. Every combat should be almost a TPK, so that all the party's resources are drained in that one combat.

If you're playing a more "sanbox" style, then I can see this infinite-recharge reducing the difficulty of a given party of the sandbox. It's healing that can keep getting done, and the DM can't stop it. Every combat is maybe 1/5th or 1/10th of the party's resources, and, if the party keeps recharging with 9/10ths of their resources left, then they probably won't feel very challenged. LTRM is basically where the challenge is -- each individual combat might not be that tough, but put together without rest, it becomes more and more difficult.

It's an interesting stylistic distinction. I'm puzzling out how to deal with the LTRM aspect of a highly cinematic game right now, and it's a little puzzling. 4e seems to err heavily on the side of "cinematic," throwing a few bones (healing surges, milestones) to those who do it with LTRM being a central aspect.

Hmm...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't think of time as only a resource to be managed because I don't think of role-playing as "a game with resources" - I think of it as "playing pretend" - which is a much larger box. The player characters in a game have just as much time as we here in the real world have, and like the great explorers of history they have the option to rest when they think best or keep moving when they think best.

...

The rules are fine. Players can rest when they want to, but should expect, just like in real life, that situations change when time passes. All the reasons why people throughout history didn't rest even if it would have improved their overall ability apply to the PCs as well.

Sometimes you would rest, sometimes you would continue on, and that decision isn't an easy one because the world moves on while you rest. If a group chooses the 15 minute work day as SOP they'll face consequences because the world moves on. If they don't rest, they'll face consequences because they are not as powerful were they to rest.

Neither of those states makes for "better" play because the game is the play. Not the winning or the losing or achieving a goal or failing. The game is the journey, not the destination. The game is the event, not the outcome of the event.

All excellent points. Thanks!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

All the reasons why people throughout history didn't rest even if it would have improved their overall ability apply to the PCs as well.

QFT again! This hints at the kind of thing I'm talking about.

A party on a delve may be beaten up and stretched thin, but just because THEY'RE in dire straits doesn't mean their opponents are. They can't expect to find a quiet place to rest and recharge on enemy turf just because they're running on empty, and a DM is perfectly within the realm of fair play if he harries them -preventing from getting R&R- if they try.

If the PCs expend all of their non-renewable resources before they've cleared enough space in which they can reasonably expect to get some quiet time, then that is on them.

And that is 100% about playstyle.

 

[Riverwalker]

If you're playing a more "cinematic" style, like a TV show or a movie, then you don't really concern yourself with LTRM (long-term resource management). You have the combat, and maybe the next one, and that's it. Every combat should be almost a TPK, so that all the party's resources are drained in that one combat.

I am toying with this in my current game and have experienced something interesting.
For the first 4 levels of the party I ran straight 4e adventures (KotS and a Dungeon one), but for the past 2 levels I have run an adaption of an earlier edition scenario (Dwellers of the Fobidden City). With KotS the players were much more likely to choose the '15 minute work day', but with DotFC they are taking on many more encounters.
There are two main changes between the two situations that I can see:
- the structure of the scenario is more open, dynamic and player driven in DotFC
- my conversion of DotFC has meant a much greater variety of difficulty of encounters i.e. some are very easy and some are very hard, compared to KotS which were more consistently challenging. Some fights are trival, and I suspect some groups would find them dull due to being too easy - my group rather enjoys the feeling of superiority they get from totally overwhelming some foes, and then the contrast of a foe they run from.

These two changes have resulted in the players making a lot more decisions and risk assessments about pushing on or resting.

Personally I enjoy them pushing on and 'doing more' in a game day. I try hard to make each encounter interesting through terrain, role-play, story advancement etc rather than it always being a close run battle.

My experience so far is too limited, but I am tending towards making most encounters less resource draining than is usual for 4e.

 

[AllisterH]

I've mentioned this before but I have a group of friends who are actual spleunkers.

People IRL crazy enough to go exploring in dank, dark caves...

and they would NEVER go into a cave unless they were at 90-100% in terms of gear/health. To recommend otherwise would be considered automatic grounds for explusion from their "community".

Thus, even with time sensitive situation, realistically, adventurers SHOULD be only going into crypts and caves at 100%.

As well, my friends either plan their trips such that either they make it in and out in under a certain timeframe or they PLAN ahead of time to camp at a certain time interval.

I honestly don't think it is players' metagaming when they want to rest once their resources are below 75%...going by my friends real life experience, that would be the most "realistic" thing to do.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thus, even with time sensitive situation, realistically, adventurers SHOULD be only going into crypts and caves at 100%.

As well, my friends either plan their trips such that either they make it in and out in under a certain timeframe or they PLAN ahead of time to camp at a certain time interval.

I honestly don't think it is players' metagaming when they want to rest once their resources are below 75%...going by my friends real life experience, that would be the most "realistic" thing to do.

I agree with that 100%.

But as someone in your XP line points out, those caves don't even have monsters...and having a hostile force opposing your efforts means that, despite your best wishes, your plans may be disrupted.

You may have heard quotes like:

"No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard von Moltke

or

"The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
gang aft a-gley."
Robert Burns

or

"Make big plans, but change your plans as time changes."
Marchant

or even BSG ep "33"

So, yes- the party may go in pre-planning their resting points, but once engaged with hostile forces, those plans may not be allowed to work. The party may be harried, unable to fully rest and recuperate, driven to exhaustion, until some deciding factor either gains them respite or defeats them.

Now, not every campaign day needs to be run like the aforementioned episode of BSG. Neither, however, should PCs routinely expect to be able to rest & recharge whenever they see fit, creating the 15 Minute Workday.

DMs- don't complain about short days when you're partly to blame: Master your Dungeon and reap the rewards. Done right, your players will feel a sense of accomplishment if their PCs are pushed to the limits of their performance envelope from time to time.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've mentioned this before but I have a group of friends who are actual spleunkers.

People IRL crazy enough to go exploring in dank, dark caves...

and they would NEVER go into a cave unless they were at 90-100% in terms of gear/health. To recommend otherwise would be considered automatic grounds for explusion from their "community".

Thus, even with time sensitive situation, realistically, adventurers SHOULD be only going into crypts and caves at 100%.

As well, my friends either plan their trips such that either they make it in and out in under a certain timeframe or they PLAN ahead of time to camp at a certain time interval.

I honestly don't think it is players' metagaming when they want to rest once their resources are below 75%...going by my friends real life experience, that would be the most "realistic" thing to do.

Then again, if your friends knew that there were lethal monsters and traps in those caves, I'd bet that they wouldn't go in at all.

They are making serious plans because safety is (quite reasonably!) vital to their continued enjoyment of life and hobby. That isn't the case for adventurers going into caves, who have got other objectives, and other pressures upon them.

It is interesting and unsurprising to hear about their real world caving experiences, but I don't think it actually adds anything to the thoughts about PC hero adventuring because the contexts are so wildly different.

Cheers

 

[Stalker0]

I've mentioned this before but I have a group of friends who are actual spleunkers.

People IRL crazy enough to go exploring in dank, dark caves...

and they would NEVER go into a cave unless they were at 90-100% in terms of gear/health. To recommend otherwise would be considered automatic grounds for explusion from their "community".
/QUOTE]

IRL I don't know many people who would fight a monster that is 30 times their size with what amounts to a metal toothpick, then obtain a hoard of treasure that would make them wealthier than almost anyone else on the planet....just to trash said loot to gain a better metal toothpick so they can go fight again.

Fantasy is, by definition, not IRL.