A discussion on Level Adjustments and thier implications

[Nyaricus]

just a thought, but who here is also in the mind that LA (level adjustments) are a sorta useless thing? in the end, the starting chararcter is (kinda) more powerful than any of the standard races, but towards the end of his or her career, the character is noticably less powerful, what with a level (usually more) worth of BAB, HD, skills, etc missed out on.

My solution to this would be assigning Racial Levels to them, much like wat is outlined in SS (Savage Species). Another thing i dont like (about SS) is that not all levels gain skills, etc. i dont understand why not > why should you be any less skillful race-wise as opposed to class-wise? i understand that certain "types" of monsters gain certain benfits together (HD is similar, BAB is similar, etc) but i dont see the need to restricting it as is.

this isnt meant to sound like a sorta 4e thread (though IYHO it might), merely it is one of my qualms about the d20 system as it.

What i personally do is give my homebrew races (where appplicable) Racial Levels that dont count towards XP penalties. They are exactly like classes, but their first class level grants them the standard x4 skills and full HP (whereas the races must roll HP and get no x4 skills) Does anyone see this line of thought particualily flawed, or unreasonable? Anyone impliment something like this themselves?

 

[Crothian]

all the racial levels do is stop the character from being strong at the low levels. In theory though the special abilities are supposed to makle the character equal at the hier levels. Just like wizards are weak at low levels but strong at high levels.

 

[Nyaricus]

but it isnt balanced at higher levels > you are missing at least one HD, BAB, saves, skills, etc. i dont beleive this to be balanced. Retort away

 

[Crothian]

instead of that though they might have a higher strength that replaces the lose of BAB, higher Int that replaces the lose of skills, higher othe rattributes that replace the los of saves and hit points, and can have really cool abilities that one can't get through the class/feat system

 

[Jack Simth]

Depends on what perspective you are looking at things from; take something with a reasonably middle LA - a Drow, perhaps, at +2 LA. What does the character get? For comparisons, a Sorceror isn't a bad choice, due to the +2 Charisma. The drow is down one level of spells compared to an elven Sorceror, but the DC's on the drow's highest level spells are exactly the same; the Drow doesn't have as high of level spells, but gets an extra spell per day at every 4th level of spells. Both eventually (ECL 20) get 9th level spells... but the Drow only gets to choose one, while the elf gets three. The Drow gets +2 Int... which translates to +1 rank per level.... so, depending on base Int, after about ECL 10 the Drow has more skill points... but doesn't have as high a cap on the biggest skills (for exact break-even on skill points, solve (ECL+3)*(Class Number + Base Int Bonus)=(ECL+1)*(Class Number + Base Int Bonus + 1)). The Drow gets inherent SR.... which the Elf can penetrate on a roll of 9 before spending any feats on it. For 2/3rds the levels, the Elf will have one more feat than will the Drow.

Which is more powerful depends on the specific build and the campaign.... do they balance against each other? Mostly. Sometimes, though, the Elf can readily use a scroll with no chance of failure that is risky for the Drow....

 

[magic_gathering2001]

What I don't like is that a PC drow sorceror 9 is equal in power to a NPC drow sorceror 10

Transitive property
Drow 9=Human 11=Drow 10

 

[Crothian]

What I don't like is that a PC drow sorceror 9 is equal in power to a NPC drow sorceror 10

Transitive property
Drow 9=Human 11=Drow 10

how do you figure this???

 

[Jack Simth]

He's not equal in power, either short or long term; CR refers to short term ability... which pretty much refers to any NPC the party fights... and ECL refers to long term ability; it's part of the distinction between CR and ECL.

In one fight, Darkvision 120 feet isn't going to be particularly useful for the NPC.... but for the PC, over the course of many fights and many non-combat situations? Very handy. Likewise, a DM's NPC isn't going to find much of a use for all those extra +1 skill points at each level, as the NPC is likely to be dead after the first or second encounter. A PC, on the other hand, can do all sorts of things with that.

 

[Crothian]

He's not equal in power, either short or long term; CR refers to short term ability... which pretty much refers to any NPC the party fights... and ECL refers to long term ability; it's part of the distinction between CR and ECL.

Kinda...CR only matters if the players are going to face the creature in combat. ECL only matters if a player is going to use one as his character.

While this usually does mean short and long term use there is no reason a certain creature cannot be a continual thronm in the players side or theat a player can't play a character for a single session and then move on.

 

[Arkhandus]

Aye. A dark elf's Challenge Rating is slightly less than his/her Level Adjustment because Challenge Rating only judges the potency of the creature/character in one battle. It does not measure how useful the race is outside of battle or over the course of multiple battles in one day (as a PC is expected to run through, according to the core rules' CR assumptions).

A drow outside of combat has various skill bonuses, only needs a short meditation so he can take a longer watch, has great darkvision to make him even more effective on the nightly watch, and has ability score bonuses that help out some of his skill checks outside combat, such as Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge, Spellcraft, Alchemy/Craft-Alchemy, Search, Disable Device, Tumble, Move Silently, Hide..........need I go on? The dark elf's strengths as a PC exceed their strengths as a one-combat NPC villain, thus their LA is greater than their CR. Personally, I'd rather play a 1st-level drow sorcerer in a 3rd-level party, than a 3rd-level drow with only racial levels, because the drow's Spell Resistance will protect them well, and the drow will have a higher save DC on his Color Spray and such compared to a 3rd-level human sorcerer. The 3rd-level drow with only racial hit dice will have no abilities except his racial ones, no real spells or bonus feats or domains or anything. At ECL 20, the 18th-level drow sorcerer will have SR 28, so enemies will fail to affect him with spells 7 out of 20 times (35% of the time, and it's even more solid against lower-level enemies), which could be a lifesaver.

If you have a problem with Level Adjustments, why not just use the buyback mechanic in.....what was it, Savage Species, or Unearthed Arcana? At higher levels the LA will go away, while still balancing the race at lower levels.

Besides, for a drow with racial levels to buy off his Spell Resistance alone, he'd need probably 4 racial levels, which would seriously hamper his ability to advance effectively in a spellcasting class and be a decent mage or priest. By my measurements 2 points of Level Adjustment could be replaced with 4 Humanoid Hit Dice without unbalancing a critter.