Woas
First Post
Not so at all. I never said to lie to the players. Don't be so stingy with the info. Why make them jump through hoops for info they aught know anyway? That's all I'm getting at.
A DM's best friend - a Guiding NPC
- Thread starter Hussar
- Start date
Not so at all. I never said to lie to the players. Don't be so stingy with the info. Why make them jump through hoops for info they aught know anyway? That's all I'm getting at.
Oryan77
Adventurer
Hey, if I was making them jump through hoops and then complaining about it, I'd slap my own hand
But there's no hoops to jump through. It's like this: if you suspected the prison warden at San Quinton for illegally killing your brother who was locked up there & was innocent, and you didn't know why the warden did it, who was involved, & where they dumped the body; you're not going to ask the bartender downtown if he knows the warden or if he knows a way into San Quinton. You're also not going to call a taxi and ask the driver if he has any ideas for how you can break into San Quinton. And then you're definitely not going to just show up at San Quinton, kill enough guards until you make it to the wardens office, and then attack the warden as soon as you see him and loot his body after he's dead. This is basically what the players would do (in D&D terms of course, I know nobody would do this in RL).
I'd think you'd rather talk to former prisoners about a way into the prison (not a random civilian or your taxi driver). Or maybe you'd pull some info from a prison guard that might help you. And then when you confront the warden, I'd think you'd want some answers before you exact your revenge
You gotta put in some legwork to gain some information, and not just some half-assed attempt where you're asking your guide for answers.
Kaodi
Legend
It occurs to me because I have being playing through WarCraft III again that the case of Medivh may be a good model for some guide characters. He has vast knowledge, mysterious powers, but he is utterly incapable of fighting the good fight it seems. Sort of a case of, " I had my chance, I blew it, I got killed, but they let me come back to help you out, but not do your job for you. "
Hmm, I tend to avoid having NPCs who lead the PCs through a pre-plotted adventure. I may sometimes have an NPC adventurer with the party who can provide snippets of world info, give me a chance to roleplay in a combat-heavy game, maybe provide a romantic interest for one of the PCs. Depending on class and the stage of the game, it may be ok this NPC to be higher level than the PCs, as long as s/he doesn't overshadow them. Generally, I've found that it's fine for the NPC to be stronger defensively - better AC, more hp and better saves than a PC are all ok, as long as the NPC is not putting out more damage than PCs of similar class. So eg an NPC Fighter should typically have STR lower than the party's 'tank' Fighter.
As far as quest-giver NPCs go, I have two approaches.
1. In an open/sand-box game, these need to be actively sought out by the PCs, after perhaps an intro scenario where the NPC brings the PCs together for a mission. Sand-box play absolutely requires pro-active PCs; successfully finding a quest giver is a reward for good play. These quest-givers can vary a lot in power, reliability and motivations.
2. In mission based play, the NPC quest giver is the boss of the PCs, mostly offstage. They brief at the beginning of the mission, reward at the end. An example is King Thongar in my Willow Vale game, the PCs are his champions. In this case he is "once mighty, now aged" explaining why he doesn't do everything himself. He's generous, reliable, concerned for the lives of his men. He sets a task - sometimes giving the PCs a chance to turn it down, if particularly dangerous - and leaves it up to them how to accomplish it, though he may give aid, eg a squad of Royal Guardsmen. I try hard not to make him obnoxious or overbearing. One thing I use is the "power of weakness" - emphasis that while Thongar used to solve the Vale's problems, the PCs are the Big Damn Heroes now, without them there is no one else, and without them the bad guys will win.
As far as quest-giver NPCs go, I have two approaches.
1. In an open/sand-box game, these need to be actively sought out by the PCs, after perhaps an intro scenario where the NPC brings the PCs together for a mission. Sand-box play absolutely requires pro-active PCs; successfully finding a quest giver is a reward for good play. These quest-givers can vary a lot in power, reliability and motivations.
2. In mission based play, the NPC quest giver is the boss of the PCs, mostly offstage. They brief at the beginning of the mission, reward at the end. An example is King Thongar in my Willow Vale game, the PCs are his champions. In this case he is "once mighty, now aged" explaining why he doesn't do everything himself. He's generous, reliable, concerned for the lives of his men. He sets a task - sometimes giving the PCs a chance to turn it down, if particularly dangerous - and leaves it up to them how to accomplish it, though he may give aid, eg a squad of Royal Guardsmen. I try hard not to make him obnoxious or overbearing. One thing I use is the "power of weakness" - emphasis that while Thongar used to solve the Vale's problems, the PCs are the Big Damn Heroes now, without them there is no one else, and without them the bad guys will win.
Hussar
Legend
Heh, roll up the Plot Wagon and start spooning it up.
I think at this point, it's time to step back from the table and have a little chat with your players. Explain to them exactly the way you just explained to us, where the disconnect lies. You want them to interact with the world, and they want you to just spoon feed them the plot.
I don't think you can deal with this in game. This needs to be dealt with out of character, over a beer or three.
Hussar
Legend
Well, I'm not talking about stuff the PC's should already know. I was being more specific than that. Although, really, just flat out info-dumping about your world tends, IME, not to stick in the brains of the players as well as if they discover it through interacting.
I would point out here that guide =/= pre plotted adventures. I'm not sure if that's what you meant S'mon, but, it isn't. Guides are a means in which the DM can impart information to the players without having to step out of character or out of game.
Unless you're playing in a world where the players are already familiar with most of the background information, it can be very difficult to ground the players in a setting.
To give a current example, I'm running a Savage World's game set in a SF setting. Now, it's entirely homebrew and it's going to be a very short campaign - about 4 or 5 sessions. I don't have time to infodump. So, the players now have a wireless link to a personality simulation aboard their ship that acts as their personal avatar for gathering or retreiving any information they might want to know. Kind of like the Ship in Andromeda or Hal from 2001.
the Jester
Legend
Well, there are people in the campaign who have information that the party can get from them (one way or another). I use plenty of those. But what exactly do you mean when you say a guide? Do you mean an npc that accompanies the party? I'm much less prone to use those; but then, we have a big group (if everyone is there at the same time we run out of chairs).
If you just want a way to tell the players information that their characters already have, such as setting info and such, I usually just tell them in "DM Vox"- "When you were a kid, you read about the monastery and the monks in it... etc."
One thing I have to say here is about play style preferences. Why can't the party ever NOT figure something out, and move on to the next adventure? They can come back later, once they know more, or move on entirely; it's up to them. Obviously, not every group enjoys this kind of thing, but some do. I guess I just have issues with the idea that the pcs must always succeed. Like I said, not a judgment, just a comment on playstyles. I prefer it when the pcs are wandering around a world, and the adventure is what they do, not a preplanned series of encounters and events. Though, in my 4e campaign, it has so far been much more planned out than my earlier edition games.
If you just want a way to tell the players information that their characters already have, such as setting info and such, I usually just tell them in "DM Vox"- "When you were a kid, you read about the monastery and the monks in it... etc."
One thing I have to say here is about play style preferences. Why can't the party ever NOT figure something out, and move on to the next adventure? They can come back later, once they know more, or move on entirely; it's up to them. Obviously, not every group enjoys this kind of thing, but some do. I guess I just have issues with the idea that the pcs must always succeed. Like I said, not a judgment, just a comment on playstyles. I prefer it when the pcs are wandering around a world, and the adventure is what they do, not a preplanned series of encounters and events. Though, in my 4e campaign, it has so far been much more planned out than my earlier edition games.
Guide can be guide-to-the-adventure, or an NPC who imparts info more generally. I don't use the former, I discussed the latter above - I typically use an adventurer type NPC, possibly older than the PCs, possibly a romantic interest. They can be higher level & defensively better than the PCs, but must not overshadow them offensively. I had players complain recently in my 3e game because the 4th level Warrior NPC accompanying their ca 5th level PCs was using a greatsword with power attack, and doing more damage than them.
Hussar
Legend
The Jester said:
I'm thinking guide in the very basic sense - a local who knows the customs and whatnot and can impart that knowledge to the PC's. It's simply a tool with which to get your setting notes to the players in a way that is not breaking the 4th wall. Instead of directly telling them something, or trying to rely on character backgrounds, you have an NPC with the party that does not really do anything other than offer information.
The skull guy in Planescape: Torment is a great example of this. He doesn't really do anything too much, other than fill you, the player, in on the idiosyncrasies of the setting.
Is this the only way? Oh no of course not. I would hope that there are other ways. This is just a really handy way. The Greek Choir type NPC who can fill in the details when appropriate or just give lots of local color.
Again, the guide is not leading the party. The guide should not be filling in all the blanks, particularly if it basically unlocks the adventure for the players. That's not the guide's role.
Another example I can think of is the Neelix character from Star Trek Voyager. Very much not going to overshadow any PC
. But he can fill in the setting and local color very well and very realistically.Note, on a totally different tangent, if you have the guide character as a PC in your group, make sure you don't step on his toes with a guide NPC. If one of your players has a bard with umpteen knowledge skills, then he becomes your go to guy for getting information to the party. I'd advise making a cheat sheet up before a session, with eight or ten points of local color and hand it to the player. Make it his responsibility to get this information to the party.
And, this can work well to solve log jams as well. For example, I'm playing a Binder in a Shackled City campaign. I've got lots of knowledge skills and the vestiges give me a perfect (if unreliable) source of information. We had a draconic paladin in the group who refused to go on a particular quest because it did not relate to anything draconic. When I made my knowledge checks, the DM handed me all sorts of background information. I took that information, erm... embellished a few points... and now the draconic paladin has a very good reason for joining our quest.
Turns out that there really was a link to dragonkind after all.... heh.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Are you asserting that speaking in character is "jumping through hoops"? If so, I would characterize that interaction as letting them jump through hoops. Speaking in character is fun for some of my players. Or am I reading your point wrong?
Either way, dunno what you are trying to say with your "stingy" invective. Players get to ask the DM questions about game rules; PCs get to ask NPCs questions about things that happen in-game.
Cheers, -- N
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