A DM's Dilemma: Item acquisition and placement

[nijineko]

heh. ^^ well, she was stripping armor and weapon off of orcs. i mean, she saw that with a little bit of work, they could be made to fit anyone. and they can always be sterilized with fire. orcish armor will take that treatment easy. and if nothing else, metal is metal. =D

 

[Belzbet]

No you don't.

Let them work for it. Let them be off the wealth by level guidelines. See if they can handle it. Alternatively, let them continue with lower level challenges if an EL equal to the party level is too tough due to lack of whatever magic item.

But, NO, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE items to the pcs.

Of course you dont have to ifyou alter the rules how they were write... but YES the rules are built are giving treasure to PC's... I dont think that is the issue... YES a DM's job is to give out treasure... I dont want some radical response like you dont have to give them treasure just give them lower challenges, why wopuld I want to do that? Let me rephrase I WANT TO GIVE ME PC's THE RECOMMENDED treasure in the DMG but just giving it to them is flavorless, and I dont want them to lack in treasure, so is there a better way to allocate the treasure then simply giving it to them (after a battle or whatever)? If that is better...

 

[Vegepygmy]

Of course you dont have to ifyou alter the rules how they were write... but YES the rules are built are giving treasure to PC's... I dont think that is the issue... YES a DM's job is to give out treasure... I dont want some radical response like you dont have to give them treasure just give them lower challenges, why wopuld I want to do that? Let me rephrase I WANT TO GIVE ME PC's THE RECOMMENDED treasure in the DMG but just giving it to them is flavorless, and I dont want them to lack in treasure, so is there a better way to allocate the treasure then simply giving it to them (after a battle or whatever)? If that is better...

What people with much, much more experience than you are trying to tell you is that the "better way" is to liberate yourself from what you think the rules are commanding you to do. Why would you want to do that? Because it will make you a better DM and result in a more enjoyable game.

But if you insist on making sure that the PCs have "appropriate" gear, then you're either going to have to trick your players into believing that they have been lucky/smart/diligent enough to find the loot on their own merit, or yes, it's going to quickly become apparent to them that they don't actually have to earn it, because you're going to make sure they get it anyway, and yes, that's going to bore them, because it takes some of the challenge out of the game.

 

[green slime]

Its very easy:

1) players should have to say where they are searching, for how long, and what precautions they are taking.

It just simply isn't good enough to say "yeah, we search the room..."

For how long? If it takes 1 Full Round Action to earn a d20 roll on 5x5 surface, it takes 16 in order to cover all floors, walls & ceiling in a 10x10 room. Add in other surfaces (bookshelves, tables, and it increases). It takes 320 Full Round Actions or more to cover the 10x10 room, or a little more than 32 minutes. But that is assuming some kind of "combat urgency". Outside of combat, the search is going to be slower (say 45-60 minutes).

While searching the room, there is a chance for random encounters, obviously, and apply a penalty to their Listening checks to avoid surprise (searching isn't just looking, but tapping for hidden spaces, etc).

2) It is perfectly reasonable to hide hings that can only be discovered if something is specifically searched (sand in the bottom of an aquarium), altered (book shelf moved away from the wall), or destroyed (passage plastered over).

3) It is up to the Players to have the drive to obtain the treasure they require to meet new challenges. It helps if you have challenges well beyond their capabilities to start with in their environment, rather than having the whole world adjust to their level, as they level. They need to be smarter, tougher, bolder, and more successful than others to earn their accolades.

4) Treasure is placed where it is logical and required for the story, not when and where it suits the PCs.

 

[Belzbet]

What people with much, much more experience than you are trying to tell you is that the "better way" is to liberate yourself from what you think the rules are commanding you to do. Why would you want to do that? Because it will make you a better DM and result in a more enjoyable game.

But if you insist on making sure that the PCs have "appropriate" gear, then you're either going to have to trick your players into believing that they have been lucky/smart/diligent enough to find the loot on their own merit, or yes, it's going to quickly become apparent to them that they don't actually have to earn it, because you're going to make sure they get it anyway, and yes, that's going to bore them, because it takes some of the challenge out of the game.

I do see what you mean that the players will expect treasure (but I dont think it bores them it bores me mainly)... Also "liberate yourself from the rules" makes little sense in a game of rules... liberate yourself from this rule (why i dont want to I have said this, I didnt even ask about the rule and how good or bad it is)... what about the others? well then I run the risk of really tricking my players (yeah the spot and listen rules dont mean much I will "liberate" myself from them). etc etc. My leading question isnt about how to give the appropriate treasure or about whether or not I should follow the rules (I mean it would be very green to say you dont have to give ANY treasure or ANYTHING, I mean of course that would be a thrilling campaign but its not the norm which is of course not what your saying). Its about how to make treasre acqusition more exciting (and saying "you dont have to give them so much treasure does not help me at all, also saying how inexperienced I am is unhelpful too. what was your great suggestion anyway besides the empty "liberate yourself"? So you suggest liberating myself from the rules by doing what? giving out random loot and not caring if they get it or not? And if they dont get it then count it as a loss on their part and forever gone? I could do this this but I dont really see how it is the better way to do it... it rather seems like a thing of style... Also I keep track of the loot given to the player, whether it is what is recommending in the book or not (which is a thing of style not a better Dming way)... maybe you dont keep track of the loot given and just give it out... if you did that you wouldnt know how much loot their behind (from the recommended heck maybe you dont even look at the recommended values) but lets say you do and you keep track of the PC's wealth also lets say you place treasure and if they bite on the adventure and go through the challenges and dont find the treasure you say thats their loss... Now at lv 10 lets just say the PC's are really behind (no matter the encouragment and warnings your PC's dont search).. it seems reasonable to slowly give them alittle more treasure (that would be compensating for the treasure not found)... a Dm that DIDNT keep track would most likely naturally do this... if they noticed their PC's werent finding much of the treasure placed it seems natural that a DM would start giving more treasure and/or placing it alittle easier (this doesnt mean that they will have the exacly amount given but its a natural way the Dm would compensate). I think this is highly probable (although all DM's have their style the take it or leave it one I would say is pretty strict) .this is essentially what I am talking about so I think "making sure" was a bad word on my part...

making it harder to find treasure isnt exactly what I was looking for (and NOT reallocating it when it is missed is not either)... (and YES i have thought about the take it or leave it method, it is all but obvious). althouh I do like the suggestions given by green slime and I may just use the take it or leave it method awhile and see if the players have more fun (I dont see it though since most of the item problems I am talking about happen of screen sort of speak; if that is tricking my PC's then heh I dont think its to bad to trick them into thinking their getting their due treasure; most of the challenges come from actual puzzles and combat and RPing not searching for items, so if I am 'tricking' them into 'thinking' they deserve this treasure since they just slayed the orcs and just figured out the word to the puzzle lock then I am fine with it). But you never know it may make the game funner for all (I would definetely like to enact the take it or leave but considering my group of PC's I really dont think that would gross any net fun

also dont be commanded by the rules fireball does 20d6 and scales +10d6 every increase in CL

 

[anest1s]

Its very easy:

1) players should have to say where they are searching, for how long, and what precautions they are taking.

It just simply isn't good enough to say "yeah, we search the room..."

For how long? If it takes 1 Full Round Action to earn a d20 roll on 5x5 surface, it takes 16 in order to cover all floors, walls & ceiling in a 10x10 room. Add in other surfaces (bookshelves, tables, and it increases). It takes 320 Full Round Actions or more to cover the 10x10 room, or a little more than 32 minutes. But that is assuming some kind of "combat urgency". Outside of combat, the search is going to be slower (say 45-60 minutes).

While searching the room, there is a chance for random encounters, obviously, and apply a penalty to their Listening checks to avoid surprise (searching isn't just looking, but tapping for hidden spaces, etc).

2) It is perfectly reasonable to hide hings that can only be discovered if something is specifically searched (sand in the bottom of an aquarium), altered (book shelf moved away from the wall), or destroyed (passage plastered over).

3) It is up to the Players to have the drive to obtain the treasure they require to meet new challenges. It helps if you have challenges well beyond their capabilities to start with in their environment, rather than having the whole world adjust to their level, as they level. They need to be smarter, tougher, bolder, and more successful than others to earn their accolades.

4) Treasure is placed where it is logical and required for the story, not when and where it suits the PCs.

Like I always say, ''I don't have to touch it to search it...in fact I am 10 ft away when searching it''

 

[green slime]

Like I always say, ''I don't have to touch it to search it...in fact I am 10 ft away when searching it''

That's fine, just don't expect to have everything revealed to you beyond what you can see. You don't touch; you don't get tactile information. You don't tap, you don't hear the wall is hollow. You can't possibly detect the hidden compartment of the desk, without actually interacting with the desk with more than your eyeballs from 10 feet away.

 

[anest1s]

That's fine, just don't expect to have everything revealed to you beyond what you can see. You don't touch; you don't get tactile information. You don't tap, you don't hear the wall is hollow. You can't possibly detect the hidden compartment of the desk, without actually interacting with the chest with more than your eyeballs from 10 feet away.

Why? A Dwarf doesn't have to tap a stone wall to tell its fake, and an elf has just to be 5ft away. I am actively searching.
I wouldn't find more things if I used my tongue to taste the wood or something too?

 

[green slime]

Why? A Dwarf doesn't have to tap a stone wall to tell its fake, and an elf has just to be 5ft away. I am actively searching.
I wouldn't find more things if I used my tongue to taste the wood or something too?

Some things are more obvious than others. Do I really need to spell it out to you, or are you just being obtuse on purpose?

10 feet away, you cannot possibly sense a hidden compartment in a desk. If you select to keep your character that far away, you only get information on what could possibly be detected.

A dwarf doesn't automatically detect a false wall, but gets a +2 bonus to his search check, and does not need to be actively searching, to get the check. But this is the nature of dwarves, to realise that the structure of the stone is just wrong. Nothing to do with sand in an aquarium, or a hidden compartment in a desk.

Races :: d20srd.org

Same with the elf: a +2 bonus. But it has to be something that can be sensed. And an Elf beyond that 5 feet, doesn't get a free non-active search roll.

And yes, there are things you can detect with your tongue, that you would not be certain about otherwise. Most people, however, do not stretch themselves that far. Of course, IMC, you are free to lick everything if you want to... But it takes longer than 1 Full-Round Action, to lick a 5x5 foot area.

 

[anest1s]

Some things are more obvious than others. Do I really need to spell it out to you, or are you just being obtuse on purpose?

I think that RAW says that you have to be <10ft away, so thats all. You can spot the joints of the box and see that there is something strange going on. Of course only if the box is visible from your position.

Now most players will go next to it and search it. But thats by the rules, not needed.

If I had to houserule something, I would give a bonus for touching what you search and using extra senses. But I wouldn't say that you just can't find something.
Now if it is how you play it, its ok and maybe it makes sense. However it makes touch poison and some traps a bit more deadly, but thats on DMs hands.
________________

This doesn't mean that I think you should be able to say ''I search everything'' and find everything. But if I ''search everything'' I expect the DM to tell me that the room is huge, and I better narrow down what I search (for example I search for secret doors, I search for traps on that wall, on that lock, I search for hidden compartments in the chest etc etc).

At this point I expect him though to tell me that ''a huge lock is keeping the chest shut''. Or else I will never suspect that there is a secret compartment inside the lock. But hell, why shouldn't I be able to check it from 10ft away