Vegepygmy
First Post
Okay, green slime, you've spelled it out for him and he hasn't budged. Draw your own conclusions.
A DM's Dilemma: Item acquisition and placement
- Thread starter Belzbet
- Start date
Vegepygmy
First Post
I said "liberate yourself from what you think the rules are commanding you to do." The rules do not actually command you to hand out a certain amount of treasure; they are simply giving you a guideline.
I'm running a campaign right now where the PCs are 5th level. The fighter has yet to acquire a magic weapon of any kind. The cleric has a +1 shield and that's about it. Another character has nothing magical except for a few potions. My players can hardly wait to play each week; the campaign has not suffered a bit from having "under-equipped" PCs.
I wasn't trying to offend you by pointing out your inexperience. Rather, I was hoping you might pause for a moment and consider whether those who have been doing it a lot longer than you might actually know something you don't. If you choose to reject their advice...well, that's a privilege of youth (and/or inexperience).Belzbet said:
But I'll attempt to answer your question. What makes treasure acquisition exciting is the same thing that makes combat encounters (or anything else in the game) exciting: the possibility of failure. If you are intent on removing that, the only thing you can do to maintain the excitement is to create the illusion of the possibility of failure.
Yes, my advice is essentially to give out random loot and not care if the PCs get it or not. Let them succeed or fail, win or lose on their own merits. That's what makes the game a game. And the harder it is for them to succeed, the more satisfying it will be when they do.
Sure, there's no problem with giving them another opportunity to find treasure if they missed it the first (or second, or third) time. I'm not sure I see what this has to do with your question of making treasure acquisition more exciting, however.Belzbet said:
It's possible that I simply don't understand the problem you're perceiving. Perhaps you could give us an actual example from play where the PCs have failed to acquire the treasure you've made available, and how that then caused a problem? Maybe you could include your attempts to alleviate the problem, and how those failed as well. (If you'd like to give an example at all, of course.)
anest1s
First Post
Uh...yeah thanks. Maybe I haven't budged because I re-read the Search :: d20srd.org page every time before I reply.
But whatever. Its way out of topic, so lets just say that you are right and I am wrong. I hope this makes you happy.
anest1s
First Post
Not following the guidelines usually leads to chaos, if you are new DM. If you are experienced you can pull off anything anyway. The problem is that the treasure rules aren't clear enough for a new DM to follow easily.
The fact that your players like your campaign despite having few items, is irrelevant. Going from ''you find what you need when you need it'', to ''sorry, but craft wondrous items feat isn't available'' can possibly ruin the mood of his campaign.
There are several rules about treasure.
Table 5-1 p135 DMG shows how much gp a character of that level should have. It is based on ''average treasures found in average encounters compared with the exp points earned in those encounters''
Table 5-1 is saying the same things with the table of the sidebar on p54 DMG.
Now look at p51,the table 3-3.
Now lets examine a 5th level party. They need 5000 exp to level up. They are expected to get 4000 gp each. Thats 13.3 EL 5 encounters with 3 cr2 enemies each. They make 5320 gp each. Considering they are somehow supposed to use 20% of it, they end up with 4256, which is close to 4000gp.
If they instead fight 6,66 EL 7 (- 1cr7) battles, they get the same exp but 4333gp. You get double exp, but a less than double gp.
So how it makes sense? On p49 table 3-2 tells us that we shouldn't have 13.3 EL x encounters. So I always supposed that if someone did the math it would all add up
Now what is strange. Two things I find strange.
- When you sell things, you sell them half price. If the players have to sell everything, then aren't they getting half the wealth they should be making? Or should it be calculated as half in the first place?
- The NPC gear value. Its way above those limits. Especially the NPC classes that get even higher gear. Even when selling everything at half price they are way above the limit. It is supposed that they consume some of their wealth in battle, but never managed to make that work properly.
Maybe I am giving too much gear this way, but I feel that its better following the guidelines, than wasting time calculating every loot the players get their hands onto and the possibility to sell it.
Vegepygmy
First Post
I don't believe that's true, but assuming it is: so what? Chaos can lead to some very fun gaming. At the very least, it will be a learning experience for the new DM, and he'll be that much better for it.
Yeah maybe I am just wanting to change something that doesnt need changing. Like I said its not really like it creates problems in game or that the players dont have fun... It is really something that I dont like...
Maybe let me eplain myself more clearly:
As a DM I want to give out treasure (lets not consider the take it or leave it method for the sake of my example). Also, giving out treasure is integral (although not necessary) to the game (in at least some respects). Also (again lets not consider the take it or leave it method) I dont want my players to miss out on their treasure that I have meticulously placed and tallied up and kept track of. Now, I place a treasure chest in a room behind the main room in a library that has been overun by dire bats when the owneers went out of town for some reason. They do not search the room they miss the treasure (dire bats dont carry loot). So, I just place that treasure (or a different treasure of the same value) at another location so they have a chance of finding it again. Since I want them to have their 'due' treasure (again lets not consider the take it or leave it method). Also I have ALL of their treasure I have ever given them on a sheet and it very nicely corresponds to the recommened treasure in the DMG (business, singing, farming, casino and other misc. earnings are all profit though so I dont keep track of that). So, it is easy for me to simply reallocate the loot. Now this seems to contrived for me but I still want them to have the treasure and they enjoy the game as it is and I like to keep track of everything (that is what I am talking about that this may be an issue of style). Besides the take it or leave it method is there another method to use that seems less contrived? that is mainly my question... and yeah I think your right its a weird question and maybe it doesnt actually have an answer (since it is the other aspects of the game that are easier to mold to create funner experiences and challenges).
Ohh and maybe I should say I never give random loot in fact I am found of letting the PC's tell ME what they see in the treasure hoard (they see a ring and a sword but they dont know how powerful those are so I can still regulate the treasure given); and letting them roll a d% to see what item comes up in the magic item compendium. And I give alot of gp which the PC's never seem to want to spend... maybe this is too lenient since they rarely get items they simply CANNOT use (like a Huge breatplate or something)... however they rarely use their items to their full potential (a long time ago I gave them a shield of blinding and the cleric who got it has NEVER use its blinding ability, for example. so I think it evens out...
Im sure though that it is not the case that: either a DM must adhere to the take it or leave it method OR must adhere to the tally it up and reallocate method. There must be a middle ground. I was just wondering what other DM's have done. the take it or leave it method, while I may try it, I dont think is a thing that all experienced great DM's do (rather it is a thing of style since even some non-experiecne DMs will do that, i am sure many non-experiecned DM's use the take it or leave it method since bookkeeping is not that fun). Hoepfully this helps clarify my problem (if I can even call it that anymore, and yeah maybe "exciting" was a bad word to use I mainly mean more exciting for me to DM since the PC's will not be affected by my decision. ANd yeah once I write it out it seems like a weird question but I think the "either... or..." statement above gets at the heart of what I may be looking for...
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anest1s
First Post
It depends heavily on the DM. Its hard for most ppl to see they do something wrong and even harder to correct it. Going down the wild-houseruling road can prove fatal
Chaos is fun when it is in favor of the players...and usually it isn't/ or the players think it isn't.
I don't mind a bit of Chaos even if its against me, but I certainly feel safer when I know that the guidelines are followed.
Give them a reason to search there...like maybe their owners told them that each one of the PCs can choose one thing from the chest that is in the back room. Or maybe the whole chest is their reward. Or some other reason.
Usually, getting in someones house and grabbing stuff from a chest is named ''stealing''
So in this example, there needs to be a motive.Hide the loot once. Then give them a gp reward for clearing the house later. Or add stuff to a later encounter.
How does this work? What level are your PCs? Some items are stronger than others- the cheapest magic ring is way too expensive. From a first glance at your system it looks dangerous, and I don't think it could work without book keeping from your part. Maybe changing this would save you lots of time that you could use preparing other things.
Check how much total wealth the PCs have, compare it to DMG. If they are above where they should be, ''take it or leave it''. If they are below, ''reallocate''.
From personal experience, when your players will realize that there is loot around that they wont get if they wont search, they will metagame into ransacking the place even if they normally wouldn't. A Paladin that normally wouldn't loot a dead body will have to metagame himself into looting. But it saves you time.
So the real question is what you prefer. I propose turning what the players don't find into future quest rewards. This way your PCs won't notice that they will get their loot no matter what, and will not metagame into thinking ''whatever, he will give it to us later''. And you won't have to book-keep that hard.
Quest reward can be a house, gp, spellcasting support from a temple/strong caster for ''x'' spells, a very special service (like exceptional help from a sage for knowledge checks) etc etc.
Thank you for the advice!!! very helpful (I wish I could +1 you
)... Also The PC's are at level 7 right now and I didnt do this when they were lower level (so no lv 1 rings or anything weird like that). actually, strangely enough, it works fine (since they just state the general shape and look of the item; and they like it
). So if they say they see a ring, a sword and a belt I look in the item compendium and get them items enough to fill up the average treasure values for the encounters they went through during the adventure (so they are not getting more gp worth of items than noraml or anything like that, and ONE item will never be more than 50% of the total worth that adventure or encounter was recommended)... also since there is so many low level items in the magic item compendium I dont seem to be giving them overpowered items (also I am not shy in making up items for them that maybe can only be used a certain amount of times this makes it so they can say almost anything (maybe I will say it is usable 3/day or 3 times then it turns non-magical); i learned from the MIC since the book uses the limited times per day trick many times with many items and they are cheap, I mean some great items in the compendium are very cheap because they can only be used a limited time per day or whatever)... But yeah I have actually just started doing this about a month ago (when they were lv. 5, lv 6)... Also if they see a ring and a sword there is really no assurance that it is magical anyway you know (so it gives me ley way while giving the players what they want, I love doing it, although I DO NOT ask them what they see every time they get treasure usually only if they came across a special treasure hoard, like if they went to the tombs to the east of town where they were told was treasure buried with a king or something... this makes it so it feels special and they could get some special items)...yeah it does entail some bookkeeping but actually I spend less time on items than most all parts of the games (that is why I actually started asking them what they want, easier on me, since I dont have to decide myself and I would rather not roll on their random tables becasue of the variability and the realism, a wizard with a greatsword of shock is just odd to me but possible under the random roll tables)
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A good rule of thumb is to make available about twice the treasure value to give appopriate wealth by level and assume the PCs will miss a bunch of it and sell a lot of items at half value. If the PCs find everything and never sell items they'll be a bit ahead of the curve, but that is not a problem and can actually help balance out the weaker classes.
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