A dragon can outwit a party of adventurers. Can you?

[marune]

This. IMO, ideally the DM sets up difficult but not impossible challenges for players to overcome with their PCs. That's not to say a TPK can't happen, but the most recent two editions of D&D (3rd and 4th) spend a good deal of time addressing encounter balance, suggesting that PCs should be "winning" most encounters while occasionally being pushed to the edges of their abilities with truly deadly stuff.

Players loosing against a sound challenge (TPK or fleeing the dragon before saving the princess) is a kind of DM "win". The problem is that in D&D 3.x such thing can happen too often and in much anti-climatic way.

Hopefully, such situations are gonna be more dramatic in 4E with less save-or-die, action points, etc.

 

[marune]

Gee, you guys are a big help.

Sorry, but if you really want to dispel the "RISK factor" in your RPG session, trying a narrativist-supportive RPG is really one of the most interesting options.

 

[Stormtower]

Players loosing against a sound challenge (TPK or fleeing the dragon before saving the princess) is a kind of DM "win". The problem is that in D&D 3.x such thing can happen too often and in much anti-climatic way.

Hopefully, such situations are gonna be more dramatic in 4E with less save-or-die, action points, etc.

The very reason, in fact, why my 3.5 homebrew uses Action Points (the Eberron "modify a d20 roll, refresh on level-up" version of AP) and a "death's door" rule (-10 hp means a foe can coup-de-gras as a Standard action). These two little houserules allow 3.5 combat to be challenging and difficult without the "oops, you're dead" factor being present.

 

[CleverNickName]

Sorry, but if you really want to dispel the "RISK factor" in your RPG session, trying a narrativist-supportive RPG is really one of the most interesting options.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky about it. For a minute there, it felt like everyone was saying "if you don't like it, go away."

You are right, a narrativist-supportive RPG would be a good way to handle it. I like risk to be a real part of every encounter, however...not just battles with the Big Bad.

 

[Dausuul]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky about it. For a minute there, it felt like everyone was saying "if you don't like it, go away."

You are right, a narrativist-supportive RPG would be a good way to handle it. I like risk to be a real part of every encounter, however...not just battles with the Big Bad.

*shrug* If your players are regularly beating the level-appropriate encounters you send at them, up the level of the next encounter by 1. Repeat until you find the appropriate "level adjustment" to compensate for their tactical skills.

 

[jaelis]

One way to counter players with very good tactical abilities is with strategic planning. Like having the right long term buffs, putting your minions in clever places, and being prepared to make use of the terrain. You might say, "Great... they're better at strategy too." But the DM can always win there, because you can cheat. If the players come up with a brilliant, sneaky way to break into the dragon's lair and surprise him, have the dragon waiting to ambush them in the worst possible spot. The dragon is brilliant so he would have seen the PC's move coming. You get to hear what the PCs are planning, so use that knowledge to make the dragon seem smarter than you.

 

[hopeless]

Dragons in 4e

Okay I picture dragons as cats and that especially applies when asleep.

Now I dimly remember dragons are supposed to be able to remake their lairs however they want so the way I'd see this encounter might go something like this...

Read this to the PCs
"You step inside a massive chamber so large and steaming hot the centre looks like a lake surrounding an island centre that gleams like gold.
Looking around the chamber looks like its been hollowed out with a ceiling that seems to taper right to the very top of the tor you've been exploring the interior of.
It seems empty but whilst you feel somewhat unnerved you ponder what to do next..."


DO NOT READ THIS TO THE PC's
DM Note: The dragon has dug a separate lair on a rock shelf hidden out of sight in the tunnel it has carved so it can reach the outside.
Due to the steaming pool that surrounds its "lure" anyone entering this chamber causes the air that is kept heated to vibrate too slightly for humans to sense but not for a dragon and its reaction is to maneuver itself so it can leap down at the PCs gathered below using its breath weapon to stun them as it descends landing hopefully on a few of the PC's below clawing the nearest pair before pulling back across the pool to the opposite side of the lake and then diving under to circle around to catch anyone trying to wade across or those who don't split off to go around and if they do concentrate on one group before diving back underwater and striking at the other before they realise what its doing.
THEN use the boiling water to cover one group so it can leap to the ceiling and head out of sight so it can collapse the rock ledge it was using at the beginning to scare the PCs so it can repeat the previous series of attacks and if forced flee outside if reduced to below bloodied once it has made sure the only way they can go is to follow it and use the time they have to waste to recover since if they're climbing out of its lair they won't be recovering from their injuries...

Now the question is what kind of dragon?

I am assuming the steaming lake shouldn't prove a problem for a dragon since it should be able to cope with environmental stuff a human wouldn't even consider exposing themselves to after all in previous editions a red dragon was immune to fire, green dragons are apparently native to forests where black dragons to swamps and so on but anyone know what a green dragon can cope with and what it can do with dming a game.

Take care and all the best!

 

[KarinsDad]

*shrug* If your players are regularly beating the level-appropriate encounters you send at them, up the level of the next encounter by 1. Repeat until you find the appropriate "level adjustment" to compensate for their tactical skills.

This sounds good in theory, but does not work in practice.

By uppng the NPC level, it assumes that the players will always play at their normal optimal level. However, situations and dice rolls can drastically alter this. This is typically a TPK just waiting to happen and does not address the issues of the OP.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Well given there is less of a spike in Monster power at each level in 4e, raising the level of the encounter is actually a more viable strategy without having that much more likely chance of TPK.

 

[Sitara]

Look, this should never be a problem. Even if you are playing TOTALLY by the rules, you can always send strongest monsters of the ECL at your pc's.

Sooner or later they will have bad rolls and will lose.