[A&E Guide] Blindfold of True Darkness

[LokiDR]

Not always. See page 176 of the DMG, specifically the example of a ring of invisibility.

IIRC, Ring of invis is command word activated.

 

[Caliban]

Please, please don't quote dictionaries. This thread is hard enough to read for people interested in the original subject

Chacal

err... Who quoted a dictionary?

I quoted "The Princess Bride" at one point, but that's about it.

 

[kreynolds]

IIRC, Ring of invis is command word activated.

Heh! Now that's funny. OK. Nevermind. Ignore the ring then. Just read the rest of that entire passage. In short, use-activated does not always mean part of another action. This is stated quite clearly.

 

[WizarDru]

Personally, I've found Artoomis' arguments to be the most convincing, so far. Most of the concern for this item appears to be over a combination involving a rogue and someone casting a spell or using an item to maximize the ability of blindsight. Frankly, I'm not seeing it as that unbalanced.

In all of the cited 'deeper darkness' examples, the rogue (and let's be honest, this appears to be as much an argument about sneak attacking as about the item alone) appears to be existing in a vacuum. Who's casting that spell? The Rogue? Then that's, at the least, a round wasted while activating said darkness effect from a scroll or item or what have you. Never mind that if it's off a scroll, you can't have the item on. If it's not, then someone else is spending a round to do it...assuming that it's their first priority, which it may not be. Haste or Deeper Darkness?

This all doesn't even mention the interaction of the party. Does every other party member have the ability to see in the darkness? Do they all have these blindfolds? Is that reasonable to expect? In tight situations, that darkness can be just as much of inconvience to friends as well as foes. In wide-open areas, the opposite becomes true: now it's as much a liability as an asset. Archers can strike with impunity against you, if distance is sufficient, and the only way to know where they are is to follow the trajectory home, and guess, since after 60' the world effectively ends for the wearer.

I can see a case for it being slightly under-valued in gp cost. Caliban, what price do you see the item being worth, 12000?

 

[LokiDR]

Personally, I've found Artoomis' arguments to be the most convincing, so far. Most of the concern for this item appears to be over a combination involving a rogue and someone casting a spell or using an item to maximize the ability of blindsight. Frankly, I'm not seeing it as that unbalanced.

In all of the cited 'deeper darkness' examples, the rogue (and let's be honest, this appears to be as much an argument about sneak attacking as about the item alone) appears to be existing in a vacuum. Who's casting that spell? The Rogue? Then that's, at the least, a round wasted while activating said darkness effect from a scroll or item or what have you. Never mind that if it's off a scroll, you can't have the item on. If it's not, then someone else is spending a round to do it...assuming that it's their first priority, which it may not be. Haste or Deeper Darkness?

This all doesn't even mention the interaction of the party. Does every other party member have the ability to see in the darkness? Do they all have these blindfolds? Is that reasonable to expect? In tight situations, that darkness can be just as much of inconvience to friends as well as foes. In wide-open areas, the opposite becomes true: now it's as much a liability as an asset. Archers can strike with impunity against you, if distance is sufficient, and the only way to know where they are is to follow the trajectory home, and guess, since after 60' the world effectively ends for the wearer.

I can see a case for it being slightly under-valued in gp cost. Caliban, what price do you see the item being worth, 12000?

You can pull darkness coins as a free action with Handy Haversack. Coins last days.

Ok, I know you didn't ask me, but even at 12k, a whole party of mid-level adventurers could have one each. That is 6,000 gold and 480 xp from the party wizard if they don't just buy them outright.

 

[Caliban]

Personally, I've found Artoomis' arguments to be the most convincing, so far. Most of the concern for this item appears to be over a combination involving a rogue and someone casting a spell or using an item to maximize the ability of blindsight. Frankly, I'm not seeing it as that unbalanced.

In all of the cited 'deeper darkness' examples, the rogue (and let's be honest, this appears to be as much an argument about sneak attacking as about the item alone) appears to be existing in a vacuum. Who's casting that spell? The Rogue? Then that's, at the least, a round wasted while activating said darkness effect from a scroll or item or what have you. Never mind that if it's off a scroll, you can't have the item on. If it's not, then someone else is spending a round to do it...assuming that it's their first priority, which it may not be. Haste or Deeper Darkness?

Actually, since deeper darkness lasts a day per caster level, this isn't an issue. Just cast it on one of the rogues weapons, and sheath the weapon. Unsheathe the weapon whenever you want to take advantage of the deeper darkness/Blindfold combo.

Believe me, this is a killer combo. I've seen it in action in the Living Arcanis campaign with a PC race called the "Dark-kin". They have infernal blood and can see in magical darkness.

And it isn't just rogues who make this a power combination. I've also seen it done with barbarians (or just about any big melee damage dealer) who have taken Expert Tactician, so they can get the extra attack.

I've personally got a Dark-kin Rogue with an 18 strength, a Greatsword, and Expert Tactician, who will be using the Darkness/Deeper Darkness combo. (My long term goal is to convince the campaign administrators to either remove the ability from the dark-kins, or to make methods of dispelling magical darkness much more common.)

This all doesn't even mention the interaction of the party. Does every other party member have the ability to see in the darkness? Do they all have these blindfolds? Is that reasonable to expect? In tight situations, that darkness can be just as much of inconvience to friends as well as foes.

This is a real drawback to that particular combination, but in situations where none of your opponents can counter the darkness, having most of the group withdraw while the guy who can see in the darkness goes in solo is a valid tactic. The rest of the group mops up anyone who tries to run.

This is also why I haven't introduced the blindsight spell to my home campaign yet.

In wide-open areas, the opposite becomes true: now it's as much a liability as an asset. Archers can strike with impunity against you, if distance is sufficient, and the only way to know where they are is to follow the trajectory home, and guess, since after 60' the world effectively ends for the wearer.

Archers see a big sphere of darkness. They would have to guess at the center, and still deal with a 50% miss chance. It does make you an easy target for area effect spells though.

I can see a case for it being slightly under-valued in gp cost. Caliban, what price do you see the item being worth, 12000?

I think it's on par with a ring of invisiblity, if not better. There are more ways of countering invisiblity than there are to counter the blindfold/darkness combot, and the invisibility from the ring goes away after one attack. The blindfold can effectively give you improved invisibility (when used in conjunction with magical darkness), and counters any invisiblity or blinding spells your opponents might have. On top of that it makes you immune to gaze attacks.

In spite of it's limitations, it's easier to create a situation where it can be abused than it is for opponents to deal with that situation effectively. I would personally put it at around 39,000 gp. (Basing it on the price of the 4th level Improved Blindsight from SS, but with a 30% discount due to it's limitations.)

 

[LokiDR]

I think it's on par with a ring of invisiblity, if not better. There are more ways of countering invisiblity than there are to counter the blindfold/darkness combot, and the invisibility from the ring goes away after one attack. The blindfold can effectively give you improved invisibility (when used in conjunction with magical darkness), and counters any invisiblity or blinding spells your opponents might have. On top of that it makes you immune to gaze attacks.

In spite of it's limitations, it's easier to create a situation where it can be abused than it is for opponents to deal with that situation effectively. I would personally put it at around 39,000 gp. (Basing it on the price of the 4th level Improved Blindsight from SS, but with a 30% discount due to it's limitations.)

I think I would call it an even 40k and redefine the blindsight to based on vibration through the air (and stoped by silence)

 

[WizarDru]

In spite of it's limitations, it's easier to create a situation where it can be abused than it is for opponents to deal with that situation effectively. I would personally put it at around 39,000 gp. (Basing it on the price of the 4th level Improved Blindsight from SS, but with a 30% discount due to it's limitations.)

Really? You think it's on a par with the following items?

• Pale Green and Lavender Ioun Stone
• Ring Gates
• 5x7 Flying Carpet
• Any +6 Stat item
• Scarab of Protection

I mean, that's pretty darn strong. At that price, I don't see ANYONE making or buying such an item, but I may be missing something.

 

[Caliban]

Really? You think it's on a par with the following items?

• Pale Green and Lavender Ioun Stone
• Ring Gates
• 5x7 Flying Carpet
• Any +6 Stat item
• Scarab of Protection

I mean, that's pretty darn strong. At that price, I don't see ANYONE making or buying such an item, but I may be missing something.

Given it's potence in both combat and non-combat situations, yes I think it's definitely on par with those items, but only for a melee character. (Just like a +6 Str item is more valuable to a melee character than it would be to a wizard.)

A spellcaster would rather have the +6 stat item for their spellcasting stat, because they can do more effective things with the extra spells and increased DC's.

I say this mainly because blinding your opponents is such an effective tactic in 3e, and the blindfold basically makes you immune to that. It also allows you to use magical darkness to blind all your opponents while remaining unaffected. That is very powerful.

 

[Caliban]

I think I would call it an even 40k and redefine the blindsight to based on vibration through the air (and stoped by silence)

If you changed the blindsight to a type that is easily countered, then I think it would worth a lot less. Maybe a little more than the Ring of Invisibility (20,000 gp to 25,000 gp).