A few new Martial Arts feats

[NekoAli]

I present here a few ideas I've had for new martial arts feats for review. Please let me know what you think of them.

Martial Arts Weapon Proficency [Martial Arts, General]
Requirements: Flurry of blows, Base Attack Bonus +2
Benefit: The character may choose one Martial or Exotic melee weapons. You are considered proficient in this weapon if you were not already, and the weapon is considered a special monk weapon to you, so it may be used during a Flurry of Blows attack.
Special: You can gain Martial Arts Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

>>Essentially, this is meant to represent some martial arts styles that teach other weapons, such as you often see in martial arts films. It is only useful for Monks of course, and becomes available to them at 3rd level.

Stinging Swarm Attack [Martial Arts, General]
Requirements: Point Blank Shot, Base Attack Bonus +4
Benefit: When throwing Daggers, Darts or Shuriken, the character may throw two weapons instead of one as an attack. Each of these weapons is rolled seperately, with a -2 penalty to hit. A character making a multiple attacks in one round may choose with each attack whether to throw one or two weapons. The -2 penalty does not apply to any other attacks made that round, but it does stack with other penalties to hit (from Rapid Shot or Flurry of Blows).
Special: A fighter may take this as one of their Bonus Feats.

Hornet's Nest Attack [Martial Arts, General]
Requirements: Point Blank Shot, Stinging Swarm Attack, Base Attack Bonus +8
Benefit: When throwing Daggers, Darts or Shuriken, the character may throw three weapons instead of one as an attack. Each weapon attack is rolles for seperately, with a -4 penalty to hit. This penalty does not apply to other attacks made that round, but it does stack with other penalties to hit.
Special: A fighter may take this as one of their Bonus Feats.

>>These feats are based around the image of thrown weapon specialists who toss several weapons with each hand. It is somewhat of a response to shurikens no longer being able to be tossed in bunches in 3.5 edition D&D. A Fighter would qualify for these feats at 4th and 8th level respectively, while a Monk could pick them up at 6th and 12th level.

I worry about these feats and the abuseabilty of throwing so many weapons. Whjle the weapons are all light and do little damage on their own, it is quite possible for a 12th level monk to be able to toss a dozen +1 Flaming Shuriken each round until he runs out. Of course, the limits of what one person can carry in terms of weapons will limit the number of times this can be used in one fight.

There is also the fact that as written, the feats will work with the extra attack from Rapid Shot and with Attacks of oportunity. I have considered toning these feats down by not letting them be used with those 'extra attacks'

In any case, what does everyone think?

 

[reapersaurus]

I think they're currently insanely overpowerful.

As a monk, the first weapon I'd pick up for use with Martial Arts Weapon Proficency is a Bastard Sword.
Can you imagine the cheese?

As for the Stinging and Hornet's Attacks, well, AFAIK the monk can use ALL Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, and TWF with shuriken, etc to gain unreal attacks - if you bump that up even MORE, I know I'd make a Cleric1/MonkX with the Elf and Charm domains (Free PBS feat and a boost to CHA), and add TWF chain + Rapid Shot and Divine Might, boost STR and have an unreal amount of damage done (with so many attacks and STR + CHA damage, no to mention that shuriken are enchanted as ammunition now).

The question is:
Are you making the feats for use in your campaign?
Are there any powergamers who would do the kinds of things I describe?

If not, than what does it matter how unbalancing those feats potentially are?
Just let them be used sparingly, by the player that doesn't know how to powergame without them (I know that sounds harsh, but it's pretty close to the reality of it).

Seriously, just because those feats would not be appropriate in a campaign _I'm_ in, doesn't mean that they can't be used for fun in yours (and the point is for the players and DM to have fun, of course).

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

As for the Stinging and Hornet's Attacks, well, AFAIK the monk can use ALL Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, and TWF with shuriken, etc to gain unreal attacks

Except that you can't, of course.

Flurry of Blows only works with special Monk weapons, and all of the special Monk weapons are melee. His feat specifies melee, as well. Two Weapon Fighting also does not work with Flurry of Blows (or with Monk unarmed, period) because it notes clearly that an unarmed Monk does not have an off-hand.

You can use TWF and Rapid Shot together, if you have Quick Draw. However, it's a point of contention whether you can use Rapid Shot with both hands-- I'd argue not-- and if you could, it would logically follow that you'd take the Rapid Shot penalty twice for all ranged attacks.

Combined with the penalties from using those feats, themselves (and I'd limit them to Shuriken or Darts), and his already-proposed limitation of disallowing their use with Rapid Shot, and they're not too bad for a dagger-throwing Fighter or Rogue (a pretty weak schtick). I would, however, apply the 3.0 limit of one Shuriken per attack getting Sneak Attack damage.

 

[Ondo]

A shuriken is a special monk weapon, and clearly can be used with Flurry of Blows.

I like the concept of the Martial Arts Weapon Proficiency, but I think I'll change it to require proficiency with the weapon already, rather than granting it. That way it's not superior to Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Still a bit worried about balance though.

It might result in longbow and longsword wielding elven monks. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing.

 

[NekoAli]

To give some background, these feats were thought up primarily to be added to an Oriental Adventures campaign I'm working on, to replicate some things you see people doing in martial arts films and anime. Specifically, different school of martial arts teaching different weapons to their students, and the multi weapon throwing attack used by certain specialists in that style of combat. The idea is to present useful options for focusing on one style of combat for the character, rather than feats that everyone will want to take. That said, I agree that as written, they are to powerful and easily abusable. That's why I put them up here, to see what needs tweaking to avoid that.

That said, and with the feedback I've gotten so far (thanks everyone!) here are some thoughts for never versions of the feats:

Martial Arts Weapons Proficency
Well, one easy way to deal with it is to change what is a special monk weapon, depending on what school they study under. However, I didn't want to come up with dozens of different schools, but rather allow the players to invent their own schools and what they taught depending on what feats and such they took.

As a feat, I would change it so that you can make any weapon you already have proficieny in a special monk weapon, and limit the choice to light and one handed weapons, plus a selection of polearms to represent the various 'staff with a blade stuck on it' weapons often used by monks/martial artists. Monks flurrying with two handed swords is defiently not what I had in mind with this...

Stinging Swarm/Hornets Nest Attack
I had thought that Two Weapon Fighting only applied to melee attacks, so I hadn't even considerred that. With three feats, a 4th level fighter could make 6 dagger attacks a turn, although at -6 to attack with each. Possibly enough to deter it happening often, but I'm not sure about that.
For the record, Rapid Shot had been ruled that it allowed you to make one extra attack per turn, period. Not an extra attack with your primary and secondary hand, or for each attack you make if you get multiple attacks. These feats do actually specifically break that rule, allowing you to make 2 or 3 attacks with every attack you make, although with a very limited selection of weapons. I think as such, these feats would be to powerful no matter what, and would be better represented by two weapon throwing (which I didn't know you could do...), rapid shot and multiple attacks/flurry of blows. Given the martial arts feat, you could take levels in monk, choose dagger as a special monk weapon with the Martial Arts weapon feat and get what I was looking for with existing feats.