A generalist Wizard

[Li Shenron]

Not sure how to call this Arcane Tradition (I liked both the Scholarly Wizard and Academic Wizard used during playtest), in any case how does this very simple take at creating a "generalist" Wizard subclass look like?

Spell Savant (2nd level): Beginning when you select this school at 2nd level, the gold and time you must spend to copy a spell of any school into your spellbook is halved. You also learn one additional cantrip (that does not count against your number of known cantrips per level).

Vast Intellect (6th level): When preparing spells, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) + your wizard level. You also learn a second additional cantrip (that does not count against your number of known cantrips per level).

Bookworm Expertise (10th level): Choose two knowledge skills. You become proficient in these skills. If you choose any knowledge skill in which you are already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses such proficiency.

Improved Arcane Recovery (14th level): The spell slots you can recover with the Arcane Recovery ability can now have a combined level that is equal to your wizard level, and can now be 7th level or higher.

What do you think, does it look too generous compared to the other subclasses?

 

[steeldragons]

Yes. It is too generous for my taste.

1) Spell Savant. Every other wizard gets their school (fairly obvious/makes sense). The Generalist should simply be allowed to choose whatever school they want. If you want to push the scholarly/academic...maybe, let them have 2 schools of their choice. The extra cantrip is uncalled for/op'd and doesn't fit the rest of the wizard options.

2) All wizard subclasses receive their "savant" ability and an additional 2nd level feature/"trick" of their trade. If you like/want to keep the bonus cantrip known, it goes here...though still seems overpowered and lacking in flavor compared to other specialist 2nd level abilities.

3) Why is Wisdom modifier involved in the Vast intellect? All wizards already prepare Int. mod. + wizard level. If you want to increase the spells that can be prepared for the flavor of "generalist = more versatile" how about, I think it makes more sense, adding their Proficiency bonus? The additional extra cantrip here is, again, overpowered and unnecessary to the feature.

4) Bookworm Expertise. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure because the wording is awkward, but I like this for the flavor you want in that second 2nd level "Generalist" feature. Make it 2 Int-based skills of your choice with double proficiency bonus for any 2 (these or other) proficient (Int- or Wis-based) skills. I'd move this to the 2nd level feature with Spell Savant and come up with something else for 10th level.

5) Improved Arcane recovery allowing recovery up to levels of full Wizard Level is a sufficient (if not overpowered) power. Adding in 7+ level spells is waaay overpowered, imho.

But, all in all, a nice/good start and sorely needed archetype/subclass.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] Definitely overpowered. I think the key concept is that "generalist" is really a non-archetype, it has no inherent meaning and trying to fit the archetype model into a "generalist" wizard leads to being "a better wizard", i.e. power bloat.

I think you're right to focus on the Scholarly/Academic aspect, and that should be the defining element of such as archetype.

You may have missed my version of the Scholarly Wizard here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/5earchetypes/showentry.php?e=55&catid=1

I think that 5e Database on ENWorld could use a search feature specific to it now that there are sufficient entries. It's hard to find things as it stands now.

 

[Minigiant]

Definitely too much.

Spell Savant: Maybe only a 25% discount and a cantrip.

Vast Intellect: Maybe just a flat 2 bonus prepared spells. Wisdom doesn't matching any generalists and it gets weird with items.

Bookworm Expertise: More or less fine. Maybe as the 6th level feature or add to it to Vast Intellect.

Improved Arcane Recovery: No just no. How about letting them swap one spell when using Arcane Recovery. Make this the 10th level feature.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yes it can be toned down!

First some rationale behind the ideas:

Spell Savant: just because this applies to 8 schools instead of 1 (like other subclasses) it doesn't mean it's worth 8 times. I value this as worth 2-3 times as much it's worth for other subclasses, because usually specialists learn 30-70% of spells from their chosen school. This is a minor benefit however in most campaigns except those stingy with money. But it can be enough to cover the whole 2nd level benefits.

Vast Intellect: in the extreme case this is 5 extra prepared spells per day (not spell slots), how is this overpowered? In order to get that many, you have to invest in high Wisdom, it is not free! A typical Wizard will only get 2-3 more prepared spells from this, with decreasing relative benefits from additional ones. If you apply the proficiency bonus instead of Wisdom, then it's free of cost and always minimum 2 and up to 6, so it is actually more powerful than my version.

Bookwork Expertise is really just the same as the Rogue's expertise, except that it's limited to knowledge skills. To consider the case of a Wiz that doesn't have 2 knowledge profs already, I added that you get basic proficiency instead. (I avoided mentioning Int-based because I didn't feel thematically this should apply to Investigation).

Improved Arcane Recovery was in fact my main worry. At 20th level it means one additional 7th and one additional 3rd level slots (but only after you've used them once). It still didn't seem outrageous to me.

The bonus cantrips certainly can be the first thing to be removed from the benefits, even tho 2 more cantrips when you already know 5 is not that much IMHO.

 

[Quickleaf]

Spell Savant (2nd level): Beginning when you select this school at 2nd level, the gold and time you must spend to copy a spell of any school into your spellbook is halved. You also learn one additional cantrip (that does not count against your number of known cantrips per level).
Spell Savant: just because this applies to 8 schools instead of 1 (like other subclasses) it doesn't mean it's worth 8 times. I value this as worth 2-3 times as much it's worth for other subclasses, because usually specialists learn 30-70% of spells from their chosen school. This is a minor benefit however in most campaigns except those stingy with money. But it can be enough to cover the whole 2nd level benefits.

I don't consider this one overpowered. Looking at it from a player's perspective I'm not sure it's very appealing, but certainly not imbalanced.

Vast Intellect (6th level): When preparing spells, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) + your wizard level. You also learn a second additional cantrip (that does not count against your number of known cantrips per level).
Vast Intellect: in the extreme case this is 5 extra prepared spells per day (not spell slots), how is this overpowered? In order to get that many, you have to invest in high Wisdom, it is not free! A typical Wizard will only get 2-3 more prepared spells from this, with decreasing relative benefits from additional ones. If you apply the proficiency bonus instead of Wisdom, then it's free of cost and always minimum 2 and up to 6, so it is actually more powerful than my version.

I consider this slightly overpowered, or at best at the very upper boundary of acceptable power. Why? Because wizards already get a load of prepared spells - more than any other class. Furthermore, there is no magic item in DMG which grants additional prepared spells. A wizard's prepared spells are basically that character's breadth of ability. Adding more breadth to an already broadly capable class seems to be pushing the limit. Obviously, this is just IMHO.

Bookworm Expertise (10th level): Choose two knowledge skills. You become proficient in these skills. If you choose any knowledge skill in which you are already proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses such proficiency.
Bookwork Expertise is really just the same as the Rogue's expertise, except that it's limited to knowledge skills. To consider the case of a Wiz that doesn't have 2 knowledge profs already, I added that you get basic proficiency instead. (I avoided mentioning Int-based because I didn't feel thematically this should apply to Investigation).

I think this is perfectly well balanced.

Improved Arcane Recovery (14th level): The spell slots you can recover with the Arcane Recovery ability can now have a combined level that is equal to your wizard level, and can now be 7th level or higher.
Improved Arcane Recovery was in fact my main worry. At 20th level it means one additional 7th and one additional 3rd level slots (but only after you've used them once). It still didn't seem outrageous to me.

This is the ability that I consider absolutely too powerful, and would not allow it in my games. Why? 5th edition restricts 6th level and higher spells to 1/day for a reason - they are extremely potent game-changing magic. And the wizard gets access to some very very good high-level spells. To allow them to cast 2 fingers of death, 2 teleports, or 2 globes of invulnerability allows for a whole range of tactics that could potentially be game-breaking. On an instinctive level, you'd be messing with one of the core precepts of how magic works in the game (e.g. liek concentration) and that just seems like A Bad Idea.

 

[Li Shenron]

I consider this slightly overpowered, or at best at the very upper boundary of acceptable power. Why? Because wizards already get a load of prepared spells - more than any other class. Furthermore, there is no magic item in DMG which grants additional prepared spells. A wizard's prepared spells are basically that character's breadth of ability. Adding more breadth to an already broadly capable class seems to be pushing the limit. Obviously, this is just IMHO.

I am not sure why you say Wizards prepare more spells than anyone else... In terms of preparation, their advantage is that all Rituals count as 'always prepared' (only if you cast them as rituals i.e. out-of-combat). Clerics and Land Druids on the other hand get their share of extra prepared spells, albeit fixed by domain/circle.

But maybe it's the Wis bonus potentially too high. Originally I thought to use double Int bonus, but that indeed seemed too good since all wizards have high Int. Then I thought maybe a flat 2 more prepared spells per day (total = level + Int + 2). I settled for Wisdom in order to create a strategic cost. It's hard to tell how common it is for a wizard player to invest in high Wisdom. IMXP it is less common than Dex and Con. If you want to pump 20 Wisdom to get more prepared spells, and give up physical protection, fine by me.

This is the ability that I consider absolutely too powerful, and would not allow it in my games. Why? 5th edition restricts 6th level and higher spells to 1/day for a reason - they are extremely potent game-changing magic. And the wizard gets access to some very very good high-level spells. To allow them to cast 2 fingers of death, 2 teleports, or 2 globes of invulnerability allows for a whole range of tactics that could potentially be game-breaking. On an instinctive level, you'd be messing with one of the core precepts of how magic works in the game (e.g. liek concentration) and that just seems like A Bad Idea.

Uhm... isn't it already 2 slots/day for 6th and 7th level spells?

When I first consider an improvement to Arcane Recovery, I also thought doubling was too much. I was considering making it 3/4 of your level, but it bothers me to have such fractions in the game. So I checked how many more slots you would get by doubling.

At 14th level (when you gain this feature) you have these slots: 4/3/3/3/2/1/1. With Improved Arcane Recovery you basically get ONE slot of 7th level back, not more. This is good, but IMO not yet overpowered.

At higher level, you still won't ever get more than ONE slot of 7th level, you'll only get lower level slots... until level 20th. Although, you have to consider the total rather than the additional slots, because it gives you more possibilities, so it is overall better than just the extra slot. For example, at 14th level you could get back both your 5th level slots, and one 4th level.

Still, you have to keep in mind the other limitations of Arcane Recovery:

Per-combat limits -> it recovers expended slots: this means those slots are not wholly 'on top' of your daily slots, you must have already used them to get them back; Arcane Recovery can never give you more spells than normal in one encounter! (e.g. you'll never have two 6th-level spells in the same fight until level 19th, or two 7th-level spells in the same fight until 20th, and when these happen is because you get a second base slot)

Per-day limits -> it is once per day: there is no 'partial recovery' allowed, so even if a total of 20 levels worth of slot might sound like you can get e.g. three 6th slots (plus a 2nd slot), you cannot because you never have three base 6th level slots. At best you have two, and only at 19th level. Similarly you cannot get two 7th slots back until level 20th, because before that you only have one base 7th slot.

 

[Quickleaf]

I am not sure why you say Wizards prepare more spells than anyone else... In terms of preparation, their advantage is that all Rituals count as 'always prepared' (only if you cast them as rituals i.e. out-of-combat). Clerics and Land Druids on the other hand get their share of extra prepared spells, albeit fixed by domain/circle.

Ah, you're right! I guess I was thinking more about total spell access. But even that appears to not necessarily be the case because clerics and druids and prepare ANY spell on their class list. So, yeah, I guess you're right!

Uhm... isn't it already 2 slots/day for 6th and 7th level spells?

Sure, at 19th level you can cast 2 6th level spells, and at 20th level you can cast 2 6th and 2 7th level spells.

What you're proposing gives access to 2 6th and 2 7th level spells at 14th level...if I'm reading your Improved Arcane Recovery feature right. That's just too early.

 

[Li Shenron]

Sure, at 19th level you can cast 2 6th level spells, and at 20th level you can cast 2 6th and 2 7th level spells.

What you're proposing gives access to 2 6th and 2 7th level spells at 14th level...if I'm reading your Improved Arcane Recovery feature right. That's just too early.

Well you already have a second 6th level spell (per day) thanks to the basic Arcane Recovery at 12th level.

So Improved Arcane Recovery gives you only a second 7th level spell at 14th level.

I don't know, maybe it's still too much... to me it seemed good but not game-breaking.

We could remove the increased limit to 7th level and just keep the doubling of total slots levels, but I think it would be more interesting the other way around i.e. let improved Arcane Recovery increase the slot limit, but not granting more total slots levels.

 

[Li Shenron]

[MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] Definitely overpowered. I think the key concept is that "generalist" is really a non-archetype, it has no inherent meaning and trying to fit the archetype model into a "generalist" wizard leads to being "a better wizard", i.e. power bloat.

I think you're right to focus on the Scholarly/Academic aspect, and that should be the defining element of such as archetype.

And yes, it does lead to a "better wizard" in terms of those aspects, but the point is that you won't get the features of any other subclass. Of course the target is to keep them balanced together to avoid players swarming to the best option.

I also wanted to keep it simple so as to be able to use it as the low-complexity subclass option for Wizards. This is why I tried not to really have it grant new mechanics or more stuff to remember/keep track of, just improvements to existing features.

These typically translate into more spells knowns, more spells prepared, or more spells cast. Not wanting to favor too much one over the other, I went with one feature each (plus one for knowledge skills). But sure, I don't want the numbers to be too good.