A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

[Maxperson]

This is an empirical claim, about what is possible in game design and game play, and I don't think it's true. It's not that hard to have a combat resolution system that gives the goblins a chance to cut you off, but equally gives you a chance to escape. Modern D&D stop-motion resolution is a very particular way of doing combat resolution, that is far from universal and that I don't think I had even come across before 3E was published.

That isn't what I said, though. This is what I said, "However, if we start trying to play combat like real life where everyone can react in real time to what creatures are doing near them, the game would bog down to the point where combat is simply unplayable."

That involves a lot more than just having a chance to escape. Goblin one moves, then 19 other goblins and the PCs have a chance to react to what is happening. Then all the goblins and the PC start reacting to each other. Perhaps the goblins all start to rush. But what if 3 pull out crossbows? Goblins will react by getting out of the way. The PC will react by trying to get to cover or low to the ground. The crossbow goblins maybe aim lower, or maybe move to get better position. And on and on. That just can't be effectively modeled and even if you try, it will take huge amounts of real time to play out a combat like that.

 

[Lanefan]

That isn't what I said, though. This is what I said, "However, if we start trying to play combat like real life where everyone can react in real time to what creatures are doing near them, the game would bog down to the point where combat is simply unplayable."

That involves a lot more than just having a chance to escape. Goblin one moves, then 19 other goblins and the PCs have a chance to react to what is happening. Then all the goblins and the PC start reacting to each other. Perhaps the goblins all start to rush. But what if 3 pull out crossbows? Goblins will react by getting out of the way. The PC will react by trying to get to cover or low to the ground. The crossbow goblins maybe aim lower, or maybe move to get better position. And on and on. That just can't be effectively modeled and even if you try, it will take huge amounts of real time to play out a combat like that.

There's a strong argument to be made that the extra time taken would be worth it.

And even if one can't model it all perfectly there's some easy steps to take that'll at least get you closer:

- use a much smaller die for initiatives (I suggest unmodified d6) and allow simultaneous rolls to all resolve at once
- reroll initiatives every round for every participant
- add in a body-fatigue system for hit points where b.p. are harder to cure/rest back
- don't have movement be mini-teleports, work out where each participant is each segment to determine who is getting in the way of who
- etc.

 

[Aldarc]

There's a strong argument to be made that the extra time taken would be worth it.

And even if one can't model it all perfectly there's some easy steps to take that'll at least get you closer:

- use a much smaller die for initiatives (I suggest unmodified d6) and allow simultaneous rolls to all resolve at once
- reroll initiatives every round for every participant
- add in a body-fatigue system for hit points where b.p. are harder to cure/rest back
- don't have movement be mini-teleports, work out where each participant is each segment to determine who is getting in the way of who
- etc.

- decouple Dexterity from Initiative

 

[Ovinomancer]

That isn't what I said, though. This is what I said, "However, if we start trying to play combat like real life where everyone can react in real time to what creatures are doing near them, the game would bog down to the point where combat is simply unplayable."

That involves a lot more than just having a chance to escape. Goblin one moves, then 19 other goblins and the PCs have a chance to react to what is happening. Then all the goblins and the PC start reacting to each other. Perhaps the goblins all start to rush. But what if 3 pull out crossbows? Goblins will react by getting out of the way. The PC will react by trying to get to cover or low to the ground. The crossbow goblins maybe aim lower, or maybe move to get better position. And on and on. That just can't be effectively modeled and even if you try, it will take huge amounts of real time to play out a combat like that.

Hogwash, Max. You just got done saying realism is a spectrum and any move towards the deep end is good enough for you to satisfy your goal of realism (for the sake of realism). Yet, here, you've set up another new (false) dichotomy that games either have to be gamey UGoIGo or there has to be constant reaction abilities (which you still see as just a finer grained UGoIGo for some reason). You just said it's not enough to move towards the deep end of the realism pool, you have to meet your new goalpost of high fidelity realism or you've failed.

That's why [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] said you move goalposts.

In reality, many systems do a better job of simultaneous combat. HERO, Powered by the Apocalypse, etc. Many of these also model injury better. Some are more granular thar D&D (HERO), some less (PbtA).

 

[Imaculata]

This is true, but we then go back to some unrealistic things being necessary for the game to play. Let's talk combat. It's unrealistic in the extreme that my PC standing 10 feet from the door can't get out before the 20 goblins who won initiative all move 30 feet and dash 30 more to cut off my escape. However, if we start trying to play combat like real life where everyone can react in real time to what creatures are doing near them, the game would bog down to the point where combat is simply unplayable.

There are systems that allow simultaneous combat resolution just fine, and are faster than D&D. Like the game Crossfire for example, which simulates WWII era battles.

 

[Maxperson]

There are systems that allow simultaneous combat resolution just fine, and are faster than D&D. Like the game Crossfire for example, which simulates WWII era battles.

I just looked at those rules, and while they are better than D&D at combat realism, it's still not really simultaneous combat. If your side rolls badly, the other side can keep moving and moving before you get to move. The reactive fire helps try and minimize that, though.

 

[Shasarak]

There's a strong argument to be made that the extra time taken would be worth it.

We already have 30 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours so I really dont think arguments for taking extra time is as strong as you imagine.

Take 4th edition for example, that definitely had longer fights that were maybe half as enjoyable as a normal DnD fight. So now we are down to 15 minutes of fun.

 

[Lanefan]

We already have 30 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours so I really dont think arguments for taking extra time is as strong as you imagine.

Take 4th edition for example, that definitely had longer fights that were maybe half as enjoyable as a normal DnD fight. So now we are down to 15 minutes of fun.

Ah, but I somehow don't think attention to realism was the reason for those particular combats taking longer.

 

[Shasarak]

Ah, but I somehow don't think attention to realism was the reason for those particular combats taking longer.

Mmm rolling hit location *yawn* rolling secondary chart *yawn* sorry cant hear you over the combat drag *yawn* oh so realis *sleep*

 

[innerdude]

Mmm rolling hit location *yawn* rolling secondary chart *yawn* sorry cant hear you over the combat drag *yawn* oh so realis *sleep*

I should report you for trespassing, for clearly you were lurking in the room during every GURPS campaign I ever participated in*.


*(not as the GM, for the record).