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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Sadras

Legend
Of course it is true that these things may have more complexity in praxis at the table. However, this is also a long-winded way of confirming my point about how this makes my character prior knowledge's dependent on DM's permission, creating a sort of Schrödinger's Character Knowledge. And this suspicion is even confirmed by your most recent post:
Translation: "Dungeon Mother, may I know about trolls?" ;)

Are you saying when you DM you have no parameters or limits at all?

I consider myself a pretty lenient DM when it comes to backstory, but I'm not so sure that I have no limits, probably because I cannot think of each and every possible backstory variation.

Also, let's say a player came up to me and requested to play an ancient dragon who for some reason was True Polymorphed into a 20 year old girl. The girl is suffering from a serious case of amnesia so she does not recall her true nature. All she knows is that she ages slowly, has knowledge of the draconic language and magic seems incredibly familiar and easy to grasp (hence her class being a Sorcerer, Draconic Bloodline). At times visions or lore about the cosmos, history, artifacts and the like bleed into her conscious mind.
Her sudden revelations scare and intrigue her, and those who know her refer to her as old beyond her years. I'd easily say yes to all that.

But the player would be checking with me, the DM, to see if their concept does not cause conflict with the setting, the possible campaigns/storylines and the rest of the table. That is still seeking approval from the DM and thus falls within your understanding of MMI
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That is fair. But not my cup of tea. Keep in mind the closest we had to skills st the time was NWPs and those were optional (and not assumed to be in play in all campaigns). There were other skill options in the PHB but it was still a very different game from WOTC D&D. Personally I think this works great for horror and mystery adventures. The Van Richten books get deep into this and those are some of my favorite RPG material hands down. Not for everyone. But hopefully we can all see things from different points of view here.

I love the Van Richten books. And for Ravenloft they fit right in. Outside of Ravenloft, I use them very sparingly for the reasons I gave. And yes, before 3e it was harder to find out about monsters outside of personal experience or in game research(sages, etc.).
 

I love the Van Richten books. And for Ravenloft they fit right in. Outside of Ravenloft, I use them very sparingly for the reasons I gave. And yes, before 3e it was harder to find out about monsters outside of personal experience or in game research(sages, etc.).

I never found 3E Ravenloft to have quite the same feel. It just lost something that I enjoyed. It wasn't until I went back to running Ravenloft strictly with 2E that I realized how big an impact the 3E system had on my enjoyment of that setting (also I wasn't as into the setting material put out by S&S)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I never found 3E Ravenloft to have quite the same feel. It just lost something that I enjoyed. It wasn't until I went back to running Ravenloft strictly with 2E that I realized how big an impact the 3E system had on my enjoyment of that setting (also I wasn't as into the setting material put out by S&S)

Huh. To me Ravenloft is primarily fluff, with some modifications to spells, horror check, Ravenloft checks, etc. How does 3e change that over 2e?
 

Huh. To me Ravenloft is primarily fluff, with some modifications to spells, horror check, Ravenloft checks, etc. How does 3e change that over 2e?

Challenge ratings, skills, etc all had a big effect. 3E combat took longer in my view. Played very differently from how I ran it with 2E.

It wasn't so much about the Ravnloft mechanics themselves, as about the 2E versus 3E mechanics. Though the Ravenloft mechanics are still important.

I think another issue was more focus on grids and tactics in 3E. Its comprehensiveness as a system was another. The major difference was the atmosphere felt totally different to me, and largely, i think, this was due to skills that players would roll often rather than interacting directly with the setting. The vibe was just totally different. I thought it was just me (I ran Ravenloft in the 90s and figured maybe I was just getting nostalgic. But went back to 2E shortly after 4E came out, and man, it was night and day. Right away, it felt like the old setting I had loved. I never once had that experience running it with 3E. It never felt the same.

With 3E also, I just didn't like the S&S books for it.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
The bold portion is the key there. If the PC grew up near the Troll Moors or had an uncle who was a troll hunter, it would be reasonable. If the PC grew up in the middle of a desert, a thousand miles from the nearest troll, it wouldn't be reasonable. For everything in-between an automatic yes or no, it's uncertain and would require a roll.
Indeed, so let me clarify further with this addition: "And if it seems reasonable for the player's sense of their character,..."

The few times I've read his stuff, I've disagreed with him on a lot of what he said, so I stopped reading his articles.

And I don't see how an article by someone who plays a different playstyle is going to help. If you like the way he plays, you'll agree with him. If you don't, you won't.
So you only read articles with viewpoints that reinforce your own? Seems a bit limiting. I also have found myself at odds with many things that Angry DM has written, yet I still enjoy reading articles that present different viewpoints than my own because, I find myself able to learn from them even when I disagree with them. Pity then.

I wouldn't do that. Sometimes when something is common knowledge I will say something to the effect of, "Your character knows X." Sometimes, though, the player will say, "No, I wouldn't know X, because of Y in my background." At that point I have always said, "Ok. You don't know that." The reverse isn't the same, though. If a player says, "My PC would know X, because of Y," then I look at Y and figure out of it's something I flat out agree with, or a roll the dice situation. I can't think of a single instance where the player had a reason for possibly knowing something that ended up an flat out no.
That is fairly close to "say yes or roll the dice"; however, I disagree with the assertion that somehow if the player believes that it's reasonable for their character to know troll weaknesses that they are engaging in metagaming/cheating.

Are you saying when you DM you have no parameters or limits at all?

I consider myself a pretty lenient DM when it comes to backstory, but I'm not so sure that I have no limits, probably because I cannot think of each and every possible backstory variation.
IME, most players create their own parameters and limits, especially when they are invested in the game and its fiction. And since we have been talking at great lengths in this thread about how "system matters," I will raise the obvious point that my own limits and parameters as a DM will be naturally dependent on the system.

Also, let's say a player came up to me and requested to play an ancient dragon who for some reason was True Polymorphed into a 20 year old girl. The girl is suffering from a serious case of amnesia so she does not recall her true nature. All she knows is that she ages slowly, has knowledge of the draconic language and magic seems incredibly familiar and easy to grasp (hence her class being a Sorcerer, Draconic Bloodline). At times visions or lore about the cosmos, history, artifacts and the like bleed into her conscious mind.
Her sudden revelations scare and intrigue her, and those who know her refer to her as old beyond her years. I'd easily say yes to all that.
So the character of Tehanu from Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea books? That's an incredibly cool character concept.

But the player would be checking with me, the DM, to see if their concept does not cause conflict with the setting, the possible campaigns/storylines and the rest of the table. That is still seeking approval from the DM and thus falls within your understanding of MMI
Regardless of whether this is DM permission or not, I'm not sure if this is the sort of scenario we are talking about here. And I think that we would be better served by keeping to the front we have rather than opening a new one. However, I will say that my own approach would be less about seeing this as "permission" and more about the player asking me for assistance about how we could collaboratively make the concept work in the fiction. And this process may even involve other players. One player hearing this may then think, "Cool! Could I play the character who found and then befriended you?" The other player may like this idea, and I may even give player 2 some additional knowledge or secret about her that they would be at liberty to tell her or keep secret. Maybe he found a pendant nearby that belonged to her that signifies some part of her past.
 

sd_jasper

Villager
But what player can say that they know the entirety of their character’s knowledge? That’s the issue.

Sure there are going to be things that a fictional person in a fictional world may have "common knowledge" of that the player might not. That's where you ask the GM, "Would my character know about X?" The GM may say "yes", or "Let's see, make an IQ roll at -2", or "Do you have the Lore: X skill?".


OK, let me try it another way: what do you anticipate as a likely outcome to this inquiry?

We're talking about a very specific context of inquiry here: the PC is in a combat, declaring combat-type actions (including attacks in most cases); the PC almost certainly knows that fire is a viable attack form; the player knows that fire is a required attack form.

When, and under what conditions, is the player entitled to decide that his/her PC uses fire?

Again, if I were running such an encounter (and I'd like to stress that I personally don't like this hypothetical b/c I've never run a game where Trolls were outside of "common knowledge"), it would likely go something like this:

As the GM I would not tell the players that they were fighting a troll. They would only know what the characters can see, ie "a large greenish humanoid with long arms and sparse stringy hair" or something similar. Even if the players assume it is a troll, it might not be, it could be some sort of mutant ogre or hobgoblin. The key points are that (A) the characters don't recognize what the creature is and (B) the players don't know for certain what it is.

If the players go ahead and assume that it is a troll, and use that metagame knowledge to immediately attack with fire, I'd stop the game ask why their character would do that, and only allow it if the player could convince me that this is what the character would naturally do, and not based on the player's knowledge. This might be where they find out they are NOT dealing with a troll and that throwing fire at random green humanoids is a bad idea. Maybe it was a Green-tar man, and now is a flaming green-tar man!

Otherwise if they proceed into combat in what is a normal fashion for the group. Then after a few turns they will learn that the creature is healing very rapidly. I'd probably also tell anyone with any form of "magical sensitivity" to know that the healing doesn't seem to be magical.

With that knowledge the players might think, "what would my character do?" The answer might be:
1) "We should run as we can't hurt this thing! Maybe back in town we can find someone that has encountered such a beast and can tell us what it is and how to beat it."
2) "Maybe we can try to deal damage faster than it can heal."
3) "Maybe a different types of damage might prevent it from healing. Fire and Acid scar the flesh so that might work!"

2 is a risky proposition, but if the character is the "berserker" type they may opt for it. 1 probably would appeal to the scholarly type, or more injury adverse characters. And 3 is probably going to work for most characters that don't see a better option.

But what is chosen and the exact reasons why are up to the player, and what they think that their character would be likely to do. That's good roleplaying.

In the games I typically play, good RP is better than killing the monsters. I give XP, CP, epps, for roleplaying not for slaying monsters. If at your table there is more "game" where killing monsters is more important than character motivations and story, then maybe using whatever you can to "win" works for you. That's not how I run games, and it is not how the people I game with play their characters.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I remember suggesting this back c 2009 as a way of using Diplomacy or Streetwise to contribute to a secret/magic door skill challenge in 4e - I spoke with a [sage/prophet/secretive-purveyor-of-arcane-knowledge/etc], who taught me some passwords in one of the ancient tongues. My recollection is that some posters found it a controversial suggestion.

4e doesn't have a Stress resource, but the GM could certainly set a higher difficulty for such an action declaration to reflect the degree of fortuity involved in the posited preparation having now paid off.

I'm not surprised. It's a pretty drastic change to the game. Or at least, it seems like it is. The players in my Blades in the Dark game are all long time D&D players, and the concept blew their minds. We've incorporated it into the game slowly as a result, but now that it's been used a few times, they really like the idea.

It makes for a very cinematic approach to the game....much like a heist movie, where a complication comes up, and we see a flashback to the characters preparing for it in some way. This is a different approach than the more procedural aspect of the typical D&D game. I think you'd have to adjust a D&D game a bit to allow for this kind of option.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
That is not to say that @hawkeyefan's example is not a valid way of introducing fiction or in any way not authentic, but in a game where the players have limited say in terms of setting backstory or introducing fiction that kind input would have to be cleared with the DM.

So doesn't this kind of sound like Mother May I?

Don't get me wrong....I don't think any and every instance of needing DM approval counts as Mother May I. I love D&D and run and play it regularly, and these concerns rarely come up. But I certainly am aware of the risk that having so much DM authority presents to the game. I actively work to not let it become an issue....but the risk is there, I think. And this examples starts to move in that direction, I'd say.

Would you agree with that?
 

Sadras

Legend
Aldarc said:
IME, most players create their own parameters and limits, especially when they are invested in the game and its fiction. And since we have been talking at great lengths in this thread about how "system matters," I will raise the obvious point that my own limits and parameters as a DM will be naturally dependent on the system.

That is fair.

So the character of Tehanu from Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea books?

I'm actually not familiar with the character, but I have seen these books around - bookshop/library.

Regardless of whether this is DM permission or not, I'm not sure if this is the sort of scenario we are talking about here. And I think that we would be better served by keeping to the front we have rather than opening a new one. However, I will say that my own approach would be less about seeing this as "permission" and more about the player asking me for assistance about how we could collaboratively make the concept work in the fiction. And this process may even involve other players. One player hearing this may then think, "Cool! Could I play the character who found and then befriended you?" The other player may like this idea, and I may even give player 2 some additional knowledge or secret about her that they would be at liberty to tell her or keep secret. Maybe he found a pendant nearby that belonged to her that signifies some part of her past.

I think then on this issue we seem to view it similarly.
 

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