A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Sadras

Legend
Agree BitD is more realistic? Nope. It doesn't have to do any of the above -- it's just possible to do without adding any new mechanics.

There's a dufference between process and resultant fictions. "Realism," to me, can only be judged at the fiction, not the process. However, all of your arguments so far about adding "realism" have been about adding additional processes. I'm pointing out that process is not required for "realism."

Okay then there is something I'm not understanding about BitD. How does one arrive at results of broken or damaged weapons, sucking chest wounds, minor scratches, and many other interesting and "realistic" outcomes of a fight with deadly weapons?

I don't know what "realism" means in En5ider ad copy, because, as this thread shows, it's highly situational. En5ider also seems to favor 'new processes' to increase randomly applied negative consequences (in the specific case weapon and armor damage?). I do not agree this necessarily fits my definition of "realism" although it appears to fit yours. Hence the argument.

Is it not more internally consistent, more coherent, more believable that negative consequences can/may arise in weapons and armour damage particularly when in use?
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
@Maxperson, you have said that no mechanic yields 100% unrealistic, whereas some mechanic yields a step towards realism however minute the step. I believe you also mentioned the mechanic needs to be designed with some competency and honesty (integrity).
Out of interest how do you view the fumble on a 1? Is this a step towards realism?

Yep. In combats, people slip, swords break or get dropped, etc. So fumbles are a step forward, even if they happen too often at 5%. At 5% though, the chances to fumble are still too unrealistic, so at my table we have instituted a system where as you level, the chances to fumble go down. Even at low levels, a simple dex check at DC 10 stops the fumble and it becomes just a miss, so starting at level one fumbles are much lower than 5%. At level 6 they become even lower as the dex check drops to 5. At level 11 you only miss on a fumble, not fall down or anything else. At level 16 you can no longer even fumble as your skill has just become so great that the odds cannot be handled by d20 rolls.

I'm not concerned with any math behind the realism increases, because it's not about trying to mirror reality. Only make things a bit more realistic. Too much realism just isn't fun, so as long as the new rule increases realism and is fun, we keep it. Otherwise we ditch it or don't engage it all.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't agree because this seems like a binary viewpoint of combat defense that evaluates realism in terms of whether a system has an AC mechanic or not. It's overly simplistic, lacking scope of how other games perform a similar function with different mechanics. Some games use counter combat rolls. The DM rolls (defense/combat) and the player rolls (defense/combat), and the success of the attack is in the difference. Is that more or less realistic than AC? Other games have the player roll defense, whether using dice polls or defeating a static difficulty number. Is that more realistic than AC? Many systems use armor as damage absorption/reduction. Is that more or less realistic than AC? I can't say for certain, because this does not fundamentally strike me as a debate on realism, but, rather, a debate on gaming preferences and aesthetics rather than some silly, vacuous notion of realism being on a scale, which unsurprisingly seems to having moving goalposts and arbitrary standards. The "realism scale" has as much "meat" as talking about the invisible hand of the market, the leviathan of the state, the state of nature, or the social contract of governance.

This and the response from [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] are Red Herrings.

It's irrelevant which one is more realistic. You can't point to a different system that adds realism to combat and ask "Which is more realistic?" as a reason to answer that 5e's system is not realistic. It's just a deflection. Even though Blades in the Dark has a different system that adds realism to its game, 5e's combat system still adds realism to the game. Which system is more realistic is irrelevant.

IMHO, "Realism" has more to do with the game fiction than the mechanics, though the mechanics may attempt to support and reinforce that fiction.

Realism has to do with both the game fiction AND the mechanics. Where there are mechanics and those mechanics interact with the game fiction, those mechanics must match the game fiction or you get nonsense. If you have a bow in the game fiction and use it, the mechanics must allow for ranged attacks and shooting.

I think that cultural tradition has largely given the AC mechanic a post hoc justification with fiction. It's "normal" because it's what most are used to experiencing in D&D. D&D often gets a free pass when it comes to how its mechanics and fiction are conjoined (e.g., hit points, saving throws, ability scores, etc.). Moreover, I don't think that it's necessarily about more or less realism. In fact, I have heard many YouTube personalities (who argue about historical combat and the like) get in a heated huff about how D&D does combat and AC, perceiving it to be unrealistic.

This is why I don't necessarily find the "realistic" vs. "unrealistic" debate particularly useful. Generally the more helpful debate pertains to those other gaming preferences/intent, particularly when evaluating, designing, or selecting an RPG for play. What genre are you trying to simulate? How would you like your combat to feel? What choices do you want your players to make? Etc.

Unrealistic, though, does not mean that there is no realism there at all. When people get into a huff about how combat is unrealistic, they are just saying, "Combat in D&D doesn't have as much realism as I like."
 

Notions of realism are inapplicable in TTRPGs, the modi of which pertain to shared imaginary spaces. I’m not prepared to casually absolve someone of using the term realism just because “we understand what they mean by it.” It’s still an inappropriate word.

Whether something possesses verismilitude or even plausibility is subjective and arbitrary. Verisimilitude does not require adding mechanics for weapon degradation, tracking PTSD or taking a sh*t in the morning. Yet, for all the talk of “realism” I’ve still to see any suggestions for implementation, beside adding more mechanical subsystens to track and consider.

And I’ve yet to see any suggestions of how this “realism” is measured. What is the metric by which we gauge whether something is more “real” or not?

Who determines whether a “weapon degradation” mechanic is more important than a “taking a sh*t in the morning” mechanic? Why? What criteria do they use to judge whether a given mechanic sufficiently increases “realism” or is overly burdensome for the small increase in “realism” which it affords? How do they make this determination?

Finally: this exchange is nonsense. All talk of “realism” in D&D is risible in the face of core action, AC, hit point, recovery and spell mechanics. They are so fundamentally gamist that any efforts to improve “realism” outside of them is doomed to appear contrived, subjective and arbitrary. Which it is. If you try to French polish a cracked, rustic table it remains a cracked, rustic table. Plus, it now looks absurd.
 

Aldarc

Legend
This and the response from [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] are Red Herrings.
It isn't a red herring in the context of Sadras's inquiry, Max, which is what both Ovinomancer and I are specifically replying to. We were asked whether we agreed with their position and then asked a follow-up question to explain ourselves if we disagreed. Please stop trying to argue from informal logic buzzwords.

Realism has to do with both the game fiction AND the mechanics. Where there are mechanics and those mechanics interact with the game fiction, those mechanics must match the game fiction or you get nonsense. If you have a bow in the game fiction and use it, the mechanics must allow for ranged attacks and shooting.
Please note Max that I said that "'Realism' has more to do with the game fiction than the mechanics" and not "'Realism only has to do with the game fiction and nothing to do with the mechanics." I am aware that both are involved.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This and the response from [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] are Red Herrings.

It's irrelevant which one is more realistic. You can't point to a different system that adds realism to combat and ask "Which is more realistic?" as a reason to answer that 5e's system is not realistic. It's just a deflection. Even though Blades in the Dark has a different system that adds realism to its game, 5e's combat system still adds realism to the game. Which system is more realistic is irrelevant.



Realism has to do with both the game fiction AND the mechanics. Where there are mechanics and those mechanics interact with the game fiction, those mechanics must match the game fiction or you get nonsense. If you have a bow in the game fiction and use it, the mechanics must allow for ranged attacks and shooting.



Unrealistic, though, does not mean that there is no realism there at all. When people get into a huff about how combat is unrealistic, they are just saying, "Combat in D&D doesn't have as much realism as I like."
Apparently, Max's term for an argument he doesn't understand is "Red Herring."

Max, my BitD example showcases that there are things you've defined as more "realistic" that can occur with no mechanical system added to do so. The point is that these "realistic" things come to be in the game fiction, not that there's more or less realism than in other systems. I mean, my argument all along is that "realism" is really just a cover for arbitrary preference, so why would I ever argue some system has more arbitrary preference than others? That would be entirely up to specific participants if it did or not.

Nope, instead my point was to showcase a game that adds these "realistic" outcomes solely based on a "GM decides" model. You fail a desperate Wreck attempt on a trio of higher tier cutthroats and I'm well wirhin my GM rights to assign a level 3 Harm described as a 'sucking chest wound.' Future efforts will require that this fiction be acknowledged (you'll have to burn Stress just to act, for instance, and anything you do that would ve affected by a sucking chest wound would have additional complications). I could also assign this as a result of a failed check to make a long leap between buildings over a spiked fence, with the added bit of maybe you're also impaled on the fence. The mechanics involved are the same. Just as they would be for armor damage or weapon damage.

Your focus has been on adding new mechanical systems or modifying existing ones to achieve "realism". That's not the only way, which goes toward "realism" being more of a subjective preference rather than an objective state. And, to rehome in on the OP, GM decides is no more realistic a method than using a mechanical subsystem. I've just flipped it from the OP so that now you're arguing using a nechanic and I'm arguing using GM decides. Funny, that.
 

My search for the right party, to run or to play with, continues...

A little late to the party :D

At this point I refereed campaigns in a variety of circumstances, with friend fact to face and online. At game store where anybody can drop in from week to week, at conventions with total strangers. One off sessions like the one described by BrendanBedrock and so on.

To make what I do apply across all these groups equally well, I roleplaying and ask my player to roleplay in first person. if somebody says "I have Rurik the fighter go and talk to the shopkeeper and buy a sword." I would look the player in the eye (or with VOIP) say in first person "How can I help you?" And cox the player into responding in first person.

Now to be crystal clear this is not the same as acting or doing the funny voice. It sufficient to be just yourself with the abilities and knowledge of the character.

This is a first crucial step because what it does for most is engage their natural social instinct as people. A point that crystallized for me in observing how people play in LARPS. In a LARP with its emphasis on live action everything is first person.

Once the player's social instincts are engaged, it adds clarity for the players over what to do in whatever situation they find themselves.

Second, is that I am only human as a referee. I only have so much bandwidth physically and verbally. Out of all the myriad possibilities inherent to the entire world of a setting, I can only focus on a few things at a time. But what things? Well the things that a) players are interested in focusing on. b) things that could impact the players positively or negatively and finally c) things that are of potential interest.

The problem is that the experience as a referee and as a person has an outsized impact on doing the above. Because you have to pay attention to players, understand what they like, and what things you could come up that would work with that yet remain consistent with the setting.

And the it often naunced. For example you can't just always tailor things all the time. Most players pick up on that and as a result the the world of the setting starts to feel artificial. But you can't just use random tables and random ideas all the time as most will feel they are in a funhouse all the time and their choices have little meaning as nothing makes sense.

The path lies in balancing all these elements and juggling ideas which can only be learned through repeated trial and error with a variety of individuals.

Back in the early 80s when I started doing all this, I certainly didn't get right. But what got me to where i am now, is the willingness to do go with whatever the players wanted to do as long as it made sense in terms of the setting and character (which is pretty broad). And recognizing that I had to try different things with different people.

So my first campaigns could have been better but still a fun time was had by all.

Earlier in the thread there was discussion about the how real thing actually are. I can tell you that it varies from player to player. What immersive for one players is not always the same as the next players. It not a huge range but enough that you need to learn a variety of technique so it works with your group.


Wrapping it up

To recap it about having everybody roleplay in first person, paying attention to what they like, and having a toolkit of experience and technique to rely on to figure out what works. While keeping an open mind as to what the players want to do as their characters but also willing to mix things up to make it feel more organic.

Finally a example.

Let take the worse case people often paint for sandbox campaigns or campaigns with a rich background. We have a group that has not interested in character backgrounds. Their roleplaying can be summing as "themselves with the abilities of their character." Primarily they are focused on being THE badasses and they optimize a lot.

So for this group, I will insist on first person roleplaying even when it themselves with the abilities of the character. I will do it passively through example and coaching but if it doesn't sink, explicitly. Otherwise I am not interested in continue to referee this campaign.

I rarely have an issue with this except for very shy players. In which case I will accommodate.

So the group starts the campaign with no history and no past. Which is fine as prior to the start I would have developed a sense of what they are interested in. Which is often NOT being murder hobos which is the typical stereotype. The last group that was like this, liked how I detailed the magic item economy so their first adventures were about working for magic item collectors and finding magic items. All the while acting like badassess about it.

The problem that most have with this how would this work in a setting. Luckily for me, I played enough LARPS, and MMORPGs to see how this plays out with groups interacting with other groups. It not unlike the interaction of urban or biker gangs. Or going back into history how warbands and nomadic clans dealt with one another.

So despite the lack of a prior history, the group will become enmeshed in their own slice of the setting with rivals, and allies, with complications born of the hooks and leads they do or don't follow. With consequences born of the choices they made or not made. Because I interacted with these type of players more than a few times, I know what they find fun and what they don't. Thus make sure for every complications I introduce, that there something else that is of interest.

And done right it doesn't feel artificial. Because in life we deal with the unexpected and seek out and focus on that which interest us. Sometime our live is dominated by what we focus on. Other time it feels like it all about the unexpected.

So that my couple of cents on the subject.

Rob Conley
Bat in the Attic Games
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/
 
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