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A good Knowledge check house rule?

Water Bob: The problem with linking to essays to express yourself is not everyone else will find the essay as compelling as you do.

Then, you're an idiot.

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Wait for it.


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Just kiddin'. :lol:

Nah, I can tell that this is about to way off topic real quick and you're not "getting" me, and all we're going to do is put a lot of effort into trying to convince each other of our own side of the issue as the issue changes with each post.

Soo....let's not and say we did!
 

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Then, you're an idiot.

:)

Sometimes I wish EnWorld was a place people could safely express honest opinions. I'd personally rather deal with thirty honest impression that I'm an idiot, than one underhanded passive aggressive guy whose subtly attacking the mental state of everyone who doesn't agree with him.

Sadly, it wouldn't work out how I'd like.

Nah, I can tell that this is about to way off topic real quick...

I don't see how. While we are not directly discussing in game vs. metagame framing of knowledge, it is relevant to any discussion of dissiminating character knowledge to the player.

...and you're not "getting" me

I actually think I get you quite well.

Let me make this concrete. This is the monster list, thus far, from my current campaign (1st-2nd level).

Giant Jellyfish
Bull Shark
Deep One*
Deep One Noble
Spellwight
Possessed Warhorse
Green Slime*
Scavenger Beetle Swarm
Monstrous Scavenger Beetle
Bat Swarm
Troglodyte Skeleton
Troglodyte Priest
Stone Dragon
Dadananshee*
Monstrous Spider
Troglodyte Zombie
Giant Crayfish
Shrieker*
Violet Zombie
Cave Sprite*
Yellow Mold
Goblin Skirmishers
Goblin Sorcerer
Goblin Shaman
Goblin Spy
Dracolich Shard
Possessed Miners
Bonetangle
Human Cleric
Angry Miners

The ones with a '*' are ones where they got some information through a dice roll. Almost every monster is non-standard. Now, the question is, did this reduce the fun? Well, it depends on what you mean by that. I don't think it reduced the players fun in any fashion. In some cases it changed the way that the encounter went relative to how I'd envisioned it ahead of time, but one of the most pernicious and disasterous attitudes a DM can have is that the game is fun when it goes the way that they imagined it ahead of time. Ok, so they didn't get suprised by the fact that the monster was an evil cannibal that delighted in getting people to fight with each other. I was a little disappointed, but so what, my player with the arcane lore felt like he was extremely useful? They still managed to get in a fight with each other despite foreknowledge of the problem, and everyone had a good time. The encounter was still suitably difficult and despite knowing ahead of time what the problem was, they still had great difficulty figuring out what to do. Interestingly enough, had they not had this tidbit of knowledge, it's entirely possible that the encounter would have been less interesting as they might have put less thought into it and managed to simply walk through the encounter by treating it as a normal dungeon ally. It didn't go as planned, but it did go well.

Moreover, my players stay so bewildered most of the time by the plans within plans and spiderweb of plots and NPC's around them, that if I did my best to keep them in the dark about everything I really don't think they would enjoy it. I use knowledge as a means of providing small hints based on what the character would know about the world that the character wouldn't. That way you don't have to be an expert in my game world and have read a bunch of published setting supplements that don't exist to get along.

You keep saying that I shouldn't use a die roll to find out what the Ogre had for breakfast. Ok, fine, then what do you suggest that I use? See its either going to be a die roll or I am just going to arbitrarily decide when to let the player know what he needs to know. That's not more fun.

"It was a huge part of the "fun" to use the old noggin and try to figure out what was happening with a particular monster."

I've been playing this game since like 1980. Figuring out what was happening with a particular monster was a tiny part of the fun. It really only lasts through the first year or three anyway, afterwhich you've got experienced players and they've seen everything that isn't unique. You end up with players that carry bottles of whiskey in their packs specifically to deal with the odd executioner's mask. There are all other sorts of things to figure out that are more interesting than what this monster is vulnerable to. Adventures can have plots. Stories can have twists. There can be mysteries and who done its and conspiracies and campaign level secrets about the mythology and cosmology of the world.

Where you are getting this all wrong is you seem to be buying into Jonathan's description of the world that is either all in boring metagame terms (see his examples) or else its all secret. But the two aren't really related. I can have a world that isn't all secret, but which is still described in literary evocative terms. I don't have to keep basic information hidden from the plalyers to have a literary campaign filled with mystery.
 

You keep saying that I shouldn't use a die roll to find out what the Ogre had for breakfast. Ok, fine, then what do you suggest that I use? See its either going to be a die roll or I am just going to arbitrarily decide when to let the player know what he needs to know. That's not more fun.

It's more fun to let the players figure it out, not give them the info either with a dice roll or arbirtrarily.

Maybe they won't figure it out this go around. They don't have to figure it out.

That's what I think you are missing.

But, hey, to each his own. If you like dicing for that info, then go for it.
 

It's more fun to let the players figure it out, not give them the info either with a dice roll or arbirtrarily.
How do they get the clues to figure it out?
Some kind of die roll to perceive the clues? Relying upon (arbitrary) DM descriptions of the creature and environment? Wading through a series of events who's only purpose is to make the acquisition of the information feel like a mini-quest?


Information is one of the most powerful tools a DM has, especially handing it out. There are three basic ways to provide information to player-characters.
One is to arbitrarily provide it "at the most appropriate time," which can be troublesome if you forget or they aren't paying attention or any of a dozen other issues.
Another is to require the players to do outside research and look it up in the setting source material, which requires a lot of effort on their part and for said material to be available.
The last is to allow the characters to acquire it via game mechanics, usually handled by dice rolling.

While the last is generally considered the most impartial, all three can be useful and most appropriate as you game. So, using them in combination is the key to using them well. Adjust that combination to fit your group and you'll get best results.
It sounds like both of you know all this quite well, but it is sometimes worthwhile to mention the elephant in the room.

Good luck.
 

How do they get the clues to figure it out?
Some kind of die roll to perceive the clues? Relying upon (arbitrary) DM descriptions of the creature and environment? Wading through a series of events who's only purpose is to make the acquisition of the information feel like a mini-quest?

Through roleplaying, my friend. The players will have to garner what information/thoughts/ideas/perceptions/guesses they can from what their character see, hear, smell, feel, and taste.

DM description need not be arbitrary. If a skeletal monster is particularly sensitive to fire, instead of a dice roll and a blanket statement like, "Your character knows to use fire against them", try to describe the sound of the monsters approaching as "akin to the sound a dry rope makes as it stretches and slacks, tying a ship to a pier". When the characters can see the monster, describe the old, almost wood-like appearance of the bone. When the characters strike the monsters, tell them what it sounds like, "as if you slapped your sword against thick kindling that is remarkably strong but confusingly brittle when finally broken".

Dry rope. Wood-like appearance of bone. Thick kindling.

These are all descriptions that are not arbitrary, but selected to give the player a sense that the monsters would burn easily.

If the players light a torch and stick it in front of the monsters, why not have them hiss and shy away from the flame as a vampire would from a Cross in one of those old 60's Hammer flicks? This is more confirmation to the player that fire is the right way to go.

Playing the game this way, I think, is much more intersting than a die roll and a simple statement of, "Your character has heard about these things before, and he knows that they shun fire."
 

TThese are all descriptions that are not arbitrary, but selected to give the player a sense that the monsters would burn easily.
And all that require the player to think like the DM to get any use out of them. I call that arbitrary, though apparently opinions differ.

Have fun.
 

And all that require the player to think like the DM to get any use out of them. I call that arbitrary, though apparently opinions differ.

Getting them to think and experience the game world rather than spoon feeding them with the results of a dice throw is kinda the point. ;)

I'll use a die throw, here and there, for different stuff. But, roleplaying is the name of the game (literally).

Have fun.

You too!
 

Getting them to think and experience the game world rather than spoon feeding them with the results of a dice throw is kinda the point.

Yes, but even in the best campaign world, the experience of the player of the reality of the game world is like water dripping through a straw compared to the full immersion of reality. Reality comes in a 3-D full color high resolution 24-7 experience complete with surround sound, tangible sensation, odors and flavors. It's a place where you can truly live. The game world is conveyed in a handful of sentenses of prose, often hastily composed. The players are not experiencing the game world in the same way that there characters do, no matter how evocative your descriptions are.

At some point here, you've moved from calling me an idiot - which I don't mind at all - to insulting the mindset of everyone that disagrees with you by insinuation - which I do. I don't 'spoon feed' my players, nor are my players immature nor my games juvenile.

There is a point to text walls from time to time to try to convey some small percentage of the environment to the players, but breaking the pace of the game up by putting walls of text in front of the players all the time is going to seem contrived at a minimum and dull and bombastic at worst.

Personally, I find your 'clues' groan inducing.

Playing the game this way, I think, is much more intersting than a die roll and a simple statement of, "Your character has heard about these things before, and he knows that they shun fire."

Maybe; maybe not. First, it's not at all clear to me which way the encounter is more fun for the players. Figuring out that an undead monster might be vulnerable to fire doesn't constitute a particularly intriguing puzzle, especially for an experienced RPer who will probably try fire on undead based on game experience even if he doesn't pick up on your clues, especially if he has any reason to believe that the monster has some sort of physical immunity. For most gamers that have played more than a few sessions, pulling out torches and burning oil in response to any indication of 'your attacks don't seem to be working' will be almost a scripted response.

I'm struck by the fact that you seem to think figuring out a monsters combat vulnerabilities and defenses is core to the idea of 'role playing'. Personally, I find this tangental to the entire concept. I've heard of people who dislike the concept of skills like diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff because it interfers with 'role playing', but never before anyone who claimed that about 'knowledge'.

The first thing I want to point out about your position is that real game play is seldom so binary as this. There is no reason at all you can't both use knowledge checks and provide clues. If the characters have the skills and luck to have heard about Leather-Skinned Ghouls and thier vulnerability to fire, then fine, but if not, if the players have the perceptiveness to pick up on the clues provided and creativity to use them then that's good too. If Leather-Skinned Ghouls are common pests and foes in the world, then there is no reason to hide their characteristics and try to make them mysterious. If on the other hand, Leather-Skinned Ghouls are unique to the Lost Tomb of Gaftek the Obscure, then there is no reason that mundane knowledge and lore would provide a description of their unique abilities. Likewise, while mundane knowledge might provide you with the general characteristics of sprites or goblins, it won't tell you that this one is a 4th level sorcerer with a fondness for fine wine. That sort of knowledge has to be gained by searching about for clues in the environment or interaction with the creature in question.

The second thing I want to point out is that in most cases in my game, knowledge is not used like a passive ability. Sure, you get a 'passive' knowledge check when encountering some things, and with success you get a some amount of things you know about the situation. But most of the time the point of knowledge is arbitrating player propositions. Regardless of what information I 'spoon feed' to the players (as you would have it), players are still going to want to know more about their situation. This is true both inside and outside of combat. In effect, in every game session I've ever been in, players will ask for clues. This form of asking can take the form of saying things like, "I want to examine the painting on the wall more closely." or it can take the form of saying some thing like, "I search the drawers of the desk." Whatever the form of the proposition, the meta-proposition is effective, "I want to prompt you to say something about the situation that provides me a clue what to do next." That clue could be anything. It doesn't have to be something like, "You find the drawer has a false bottom." It could be something like, "The drawer isn't as deep as you would expect it to be." But both are effectively 'clues' or 'bread crumbs' provided to the player that give the player some indication of what future propositions might be rewarded with more clues and hopefully eventually affirmation of success.

So the more usual use of knowledge (and most skills really) is to arbitrate in something less than an arbitrary fashion whether the player succeeds in gathering a clue based on the character's ability (rather than the player's alone).

I've argued elsewhere that RPG's must be primarily about testing player ability. But if RPG's are only about testing player ability, they aren't really role-playing games in a general sense because by definition a game in which only the player's ability is tested and not his character's ability is a game in which you can only play yourself. Your character knows only what you know, and has only your judgment, perceptions, and social accumen. If you do away with diplomacy as a skill concept, you end up with a game that is solely about using your own charisma to convince the DM - which is therefore subject to the DM's own preferences and biases (and relationship with the person doing the convincing). This is from the perspective of the player's wholly arbitary. The DM decides everything according to his whims. The DM doesn't feel his whims are arbitrary, but that's the DM's perspective and you have to be very careful when DMing not to see things only through your own eyes.

At my table, you can't ask for a diplomacy check directly. A social skill check must be earned through appropriate role play. Whether that diplomacy succeeds is arbitrated in part (though not completely) through use of the dice. Really reasonable requests can fail when made by characters who are in game terms inept. Really confrontational and tactless approaches can succeed when made by a character with great charisma. A player can't completely substitute his own charisma for his character's. I tell my players that I judge their approaches based on the content of the approach, not the smoothness of the delivery or the elegance of their words. I let the dice handle the randomness and unpredictability of the world.

Knowledge skill checks serve much the same purpose. The player asks me a question about his character's understanding of the situation. Rather than arbitrarily deciding what his character knows, I give the character a chance of knowing some random factoid that itself serves as a clue. That way the player isn't completely dependendent on saying 'DM pass phrases' before I provide entrance to the next portion of the scenario and give them the next bread crumb.

That is actually role playing in the sense of being able to take on a persona other than your own.
 
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At some point here, you've moved from calling me an idiot - which I don't mind at all - to insulting the mindset of everyone that disagrees with you by insinuation - which I do. I don't 'spoon feed' my players, nor are my players immature nor my games juvenile.

I meant the idiot remark as a joke. You know, knee jerk reaction. I said so in the post.

I wasn't looking to insult you or anybody else. If I did, I apologize. I meant it as a "funny". Sorry you didn't take it that way.

Personally, I find your 'clues' groan inducing.

Really? Hm. Since I just apologized if I had insulted you, it would be awkward to go into here what I think of dicing instead of roleplaying.

Figuring out that an undead monster might be vulnerable to fire doesn't constitute a particularly intriguing puzzle...

It sure can be if that monster is kicking your butt. "What the hell will stop it?!"

"I don't know! Try fire!"

And...I used that example because it was easy. I sure the first thing that most gamers will try is fire. I didn't want to get sidetracked by the "thing being diced for", because that's not important to the discussion.

I'm struck by the fact that you seem to think figuring out a monsters combat vulnerabilities and defenses is core to the idea of 'role playing'.

Your words make it "core". I never said that. It's a part of roleplaying--living through the situation.

The first thing I want to point out about your position is that real game play is seldom so binary as this. There is no reason at all you can't both use knowledge checks and provide clues.

I believe I said that earlier.



Look, obviously we have different views on this. You think I'm wrong. I know I don't like your take on the matter. We're not going to get anywhere.

We can keep going back and forth on this, or not, as I said earlier. I really didn't want to go down this road.

So, let's just end this, each to our respective corners, and respect that neither of us is having good bad fun in the way we run our games.
 

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