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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7649666" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I will mention at this point I know at least two other prolific posters have that impression and it certainly predates this article. I mentioned in a PM to another of the 4e fans on this board months ago that I found the distinct anti-4e bias of one of the mods here annoying. Two names came back - yours was the one I wasn't thinking of. You've also been quoted extensively at least twice on the Something Awful grognards.txt thread (by someone who was banned from ENWorld a long time ago) as an example of an ENWorld moderator showing serious bias against 4e, and I'm pretty sure the first person I mentioned wasn't a Goon.</p><p></p><p>I think what's going on is that you are trying to pick apart to better understand something you like - and it's taken as picking something apart. I've done this so many times in the past.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think at this point we're getting closer to the heart of the issue. Satisfaction-seeking players are quite happy playing the awesome <a href="http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/" target="_blank">Fiasco</a> in which everything goes horribly wrong for two hours. We're also getting quite close to the Pemertonian scene framing thread.</p><p></p><p>To expand, I scene frame as a matter of course and run a highly improvised game most of the time. (Not always; I enjoyed running Caverns of Thracia). </p><p></p><p>One of the bigger Combat as War sections I've ran basically started "You have thirty six ogres coming towards your town - each one of them is at least the level of your PCs and they are lead by a Hellpact Warlock. Challenge? Yes. The PCs knew that literally until the final showdown they could not win a fight with the ogres (other than the single "mug the sentry" attempt). What they could do was hit and run (or more often hit and hide - we had a hunter, a scout, a thief, and a vampire) and judge when to bug out. Fiero? Oh <em>hell</em> yes (and I'm not sure whether the death of the Invoker in mortal combat with the Hellpact Warlock defending her inner sanctum was a fiero loss or even a satisfaction win - that was how the dice came out). But the PCs helped me set the scenes, saying what they were doing, and setting how to tackle the challenges. The players had almost as much input into the world as I did - and the whole arc was very high fiero for each scene even if it was a satisfaction-arc.</p><p></p><p>But had the PCs died before that final showdown I'd probably have blamed myself. I literally didn't know until the session started how they'd try tackling the ogres, and the ogre reinforcement pattern was different in three of the four sessions of trying to thin them out and made up on the spur of the moment (the fourth was meant to be overwhelming force and a PC victory was rescuing the kobolds - but my dice deserted me and it turned into a comedy).</p><p></p><p>This is an extremely different situation from a pre-set dungeon that will indeed always be there. And when you run that open, overpitching and accidently killing a PC (as opposed to a Darwin Award) is a worry.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7649666, member: 87792"] I will mention at this point I know at least two other prolific posters have that impression and it certainly predates this article. I mentioned in a PM to another of the 4e fans on this board months ago that I found the distinct anti-4e bias of one of the mods here annoying. Two names came back - yours was the one I wasn't thinking of. You've also been quoted extensively at least twice on the Something Awful grognards.txt thread (by someone who was banned from ENWorld a long time ago) as an example of an ENWorld moderator showing serious bias against 4e, and I'm pretty sure the first person I mentioned wasn't a Goon. I think what's going on is that you are trying to pick apart to better understand something you like - and it's taken as picking something apart. I've done this so many times in the past. I think at this point we're getting closer to the heart of the issue. Satisfaction-seeking players are quite happy playing the awesome [URL="http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/"]Fiasco[/URL] in which everything goes horribly wrong for two hours. We're also getting quite close to the Pemertonian scene framing thread. To expand, I scene frame as a matter of course and run a highly improvised game most of the time. (Not always; I enjoyed running Caverns of Thracia). One of the bigger Combat as War sections I've ran basically started "You have thirty six ogres coming towards your town - each one of them is at least the level of your PCs and they are lead by a Hellpact Warlock. Challenge? Yes. The PCs knew that literally until the final showdown they could not win a fight with the ogres (other than the single "mug the sentry" attempt). What they could do was hit and run (or more often hit and hide - we had a hunter, a scout, a thief, and a vampire) and judge when to bug out. Fiero? Oh [I]hell[/I] yes (and I'm not sure whether the death of the Invoker in mortal combat with the Hellpact Warlock defending her inner sanctum was a fiero loss or even a satisfaction win - that was how the dice came out). But the PCs helped me set the scenes, saying what they were doing, and setting how to tackle the challenges. The players had almost as much input into the world as I did - and the whole arc was very high fiero for each scene even if it was a satisfaction-arc. But had the PCs died before that final showdown I'd probably have blamed myself. I literally didn't know until the session started how they'd try tackling the ogres, and the ogre reinforcement pattern was different in three of the four sessions of trying to thin them out and made up on the spur of the moment (the fourth was meant to be overwhelming force and a PC victory was rescuing the kobolds - but my dice deserted me and it turned into a comedy). This is an extremely different situation from a pre-set dungeon that will indeed always be there. And when you run that open, overpitching and accidently killing a PC (as opposed to a Darwin Award) is a worry. [/QUOTE]
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