A Loser Is Yuo

Life is full of irrevocable decisions that you cannot take back, and that may change your life forever. Thinking of quitting your job? Thinking of getting a divorce? Thinking of moving cross-country to take an entry-level position at a job you might be more excited for? Pondering having a child, or going to grad school? There's a risk involved in every change, but there's also potential...

Life is full of irrevocable decisions that you cannot take back, and that may change your life forever. Thinking of quitting your job? Thinking of getting a divorce? Thinking of moving cross-country to take an entry-level position at a job you might be more excited for? Pondering having a child, or going to grad school? There's a risk involved in every change, but there's also potential reward, too. Is the risk worth the reward? How can you know, without knowing all the different ways in which this might affect your life?

Turns out, there is a website out there that will help you make that tremendous decision.

It will toss a coin for you.

And it’s not just some fly-by-night click-bait gimmick, either. It’s a serious social science experiment, performed by economists from the University of Chicago, one of the world’s pre-eminent economic schools. A major life decision, possibly affecting the entire rest of your life, left up to a coin toss.

That sense of trepidation you feel right now, of the intimidating risk of this major life change, left up to a coin toss? That's normal. Most people would feel that. It's also deeply irrational.

Loss Aversion and the Left Brain Bias

Let’s say I give you $2,000. That could be pretty useful, right? Imagine all the things you could get with that. It’s a nice chunk of change! But, before you go, I give you a choice: I can either take $500 back, OR, I can let you flip a coin, and if it comes up heads, I’ll take $1,000, but if it comes up tails, I won’t take anything.

If you’re like most people, you’ll want to flip a coin.

This is a bones-deep instinct in people: to preserve what you have against loss. This preference isn’t rational, but the decent chance that you won’t have to give me ANY money is worth the additional risk to you. Loss aversion is hard-wired human behavior. Even monkeys demonstrate it. It makes good biological sense, in a Darwinian sense, to fear that loss.

This is part of why we have a left brain bias: the analysis and detailed thought helps us achieve some control over the possibility of loss. We convince ourselves that we have a better chance to win that coin flip than we actually do (exceptionalism also being an evolutionary advantage), and at least that illusion of control, and that sense of our situation being special, helps us prefer the flip of the coin to the guaranteed loss of $500.

In the games we play, we also have loss aversion: we don’t want our characters to die, we don’t want our plots unraveled. We like to preserve what we create. So you can see, over the last 40 years of D&D, a gradual but perceptible shift toward deeper control, and less catastrophic loss.

To Fail Without Losing

In D&D, unlike in my hypothetical situation above, it is possible to avoid all loss. Your characters never have to die, your plots never have to become unraveled, and hours and hours of magnificent fun can be had, and is had every week, by people whose primary activity is actually the creation of something, rather than its destruction.

That isn’t to say that you don’t suffer setbacks, or failures, playing a character in that game. You may not accomplish your character’s goals, but this lack of gaining is distinct from a loss. A failure for your character, while perhaps tragic and interesting and fun to play through, doesn’t cause the same sort of emotional response that actual loss causes.

So, a distinction can be made. From your character’s perspective, a failure is when they do not advance their goals. If you try to put an end to the orc horde, and are taken prisoner or slain, your character has failed. A loss, from your character’s perspective, happens when they have something taken from them. If the orc horde killed your character’s daughter, or if they took your character’s magical axe, your character has lost something. They can be the same thing, but they can also be different: your character might get their axe stolen while still beating back the horde (losing without failure), or your character might keep their axe but fail to stop the orcs’ advance (failure without losing).

In general, the player feels these failures and losses along with their character. It’s no accident that DM advice over the ages has advocated more and more for minimizing loss. If your player has something that’s important to them and/or their character, the more recent gaming advice would be to let them have it and keep it and not to cause them any anxiety about losing it. You don’t threaten to actually kill a PC’s family. You don’t take a PC’s iconic weapon. You don’t kill characters unless you have to. You don’t cause loss, as a DM. A player is invested in these character traits, so they are fairly off-limits. Loss is such a powerful motivator, that the DM is told not to ever seriously activate it, because it can ruin entire play sessions. This is distinct from early-edition advice that had no qualms with fairly common death, easily horrible equipment damage, and magic spells that focused on making the player suffer some real loss.

The thing with loss is that it can never be entirely consensual, if it is to be a true loss. Something you willingly give up isn’t a loss, and neither is simply failing to gain something. Loss takes what you have, what you want to keep, and separates you from it. And, emotionally speaking, that’s dangerous territory. It’s no surprise the game has moved toward controlling that loss.

A Controlled Story

While anyone who plays a sport or a game of poker at some point is going to feel loss, the same is not necessarily true of the stories we encounter in our books or movies. Especially in the genre of heroic fantasy, loss is a rare sensation. Passive media certainly can make one feel loss (think of the way you felt during the first few minutes of Up– that’s loss you’re experiencing, the same loss the protagonist is experiencing), but there’s a lot of things about the expectations of the genres we traffic in that loss will not play a big part in the story. The characters we play are motherless murderhobos, or exceptional heroes, or doomed investigators, or otherwise exceptional and magical people who all share one major thing in common: they don’t have much that they can actually lose as long as the story goes on.

Even when loss does occur, either in-genre or out, it always has a purpose. Losing at poker or monopoly or dominos can be frustrating and difficult and even random or inexplicable, but when a loss occurs in our stories, we demand an explanation, a reason, a cause, and a greater purpose.

This is loss at its most controlled, dispensed rarely, and only for very specific ends. In an RPG, this kind of loss can look something like a mechanic known as the “death flag.”

Typically, in a game that uses the death flag, your character will never die. They may fail, they may struggle, but you as a player will never lose this character that you have put so much work into creating and playing – that loss is off-limits.

Unless you opt into it, by “raising the death flag” at the moment that is important to your character. You control the loss you may experience as a player. In the coin toss at the beginning, you now know for sure: there’s no chance you’re going to lose that $1,000 unless you allow it, transforming loss into sacrifice.

The Thrill Of Losing

Despite 40 years and a general tendency toward avoiding loss in our games, we’re still at the point, as of 4e, where we still want rules for loss in the game. Characters can still die. In 4e, it’s kind of exceptional and requires bending the system a little bit, or a run of VERY bad luck, but it can and does happen. Some folks even use house rules like increased monster damage to make it more likely to happen. We know, on some level, that removing it entirely would be somehow…less fun. A basic 4e character is never deprived of their powers, gets whatever magic items they ask for, and, as a typical fantasy-genre hero, has no familial attachments of any great note. But they can still die. The player can still lose the character. And we want to keep that in the mix as a possibility.

Given that loss is something we avoid so vehemently, why do we want to keep even that remnant in?

Well, the truth is that some folks don’t, and they’re very comfortable with a 4e with the hypothetical possibility of character death that is rarely, if ever, actually employed. This makes them part and parcel of the more story-like, controlled style mentioned above.

But for those that cling to it, it provides something useful to them: an element of danger, the thrill of potential defeat.

Groups, of course, vary with how often they would like to employ potential defeat. Even simply being out there in the abstract most of the time, such as in 4e, it is more than enough for some people. However, one of the highlights of a more “game-like” kind of game is that this loss is more real and more prominent. Not simply failure, but actual loss, so that the player actually experiences an aversion. This is the core element of something like the old D&D cartoon with the armored guy cowering from the rust monster. This was also what the player was feeling: a severe aversion to losing their hard-earned (and often magical) equipment. If the player themselves is not scared of the consequences of going into the dungeon, for some game-centric playstyles, the game does not feature enough actual loss.

What Do You Want To Lose?

This week’s audience question is a bit of a tougher one to pose than in most weeks. What I’d really like to ask is what you would want to lose in your own gameplay, what you’d be willing to give up…but that kind of misses the point. The moment you’re willing to give it up, it stops being a loss.

So instead, let me tackle this from the other side: what do you like most about your favorite characters? And how much would you be able to tolerate the DM taking that from them, before it became un-fun? Would you be OK with your brave strong fighter becoming cowardly and weak? Or your smart mage becoming dumb? What about having your god shun you as a cleric, or experiencing a fall from grace as a paladin? How much can you lose, and still have fun with your game?
 

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scott2978

First Post
The players in my gaming group are notorious for getting wrankled by even the slightest perceived loss, so I'm interested to see what other people comment on this.

As a player I hate making a new PC every week in deadly games, especially if that kind of campaign was not discussed before hand. I always invest myself in my character and their backstory, so re-inventing a deep character with rich history over and over gets very tedious. That said, as a DM I think it's very hard to present characters with opportunities for self-sacrifice so that they have a way to die with glory instead of just being killed. 99.999% of the time the player will take every last possible step before consciously choosing death. That means that every death has to be against the player's will, and therefore DM orchestrated (even when unintentional). That lack of control feeling as it relates to loss is what really wrankles my players most. Yeah they are all power gaming munchkins, but that's beside the point.
 

delericho

Legend
"Star Trek: Generations" is a pretty dire film, but Kirk's absolutely right when he notes that he needs that risk of losing or the game's no fun.

That said, I also see the wisdom in allowing a player to denote specific elements of their character as, basically, their own sacred cows. So, if they've got an heirloom sword passed down from their murdered father, perhaps it's best the DM keep his hands off. :) (Of course, a player shouldn't abuse that by trying to declare his hit points as sacred! And, actually, I wouldn't even allow a "death flag" arrangement IMC, either - perhaps ironically, a character's life can be less integral to the character than pieces of equipment!)

However, there is an even better way: make losing fun.

At first blush, it seems absurd. But, actually, it is possible to make loss entertaining enough that players not only don't mind it, but they might even actively seek it out. I've seen this in WFRP (2nd Ed), where the players would quite gleefully accrue Insanity Points, would hang on the results of those critical hits to see what was happening, and so on.

But the very best example I have comes from a recent "Black Crusade" one-shot, in which the party Sorcerer made use of his magic for the very first time. He elected to "push" on the grounds that the risk was pretty low, and then proceeded to roll the 1-in-10,000 event that instantly and irrevocably wiped his character from existence! Which sounds awful, but which actually turned out to be the abiding highlight of the game.

Of course, it's possible that that says more about my skills as a GM more than anything else...
 

Shayuri

First Post
There's different kinds of losses for me. Some losses are 'story driven.' Like if my character loses a friend, or loved one, but the loss has no material effect on that character's game experience. It's pure roleplaying then; the loss is entirely the characters, and not mine. That's pretty easy to deal with, but perhaps falls under 'what I'd be willing to lose' and is therefore not loss at all. :)

What's harder to deal with is things that make my character impotent. That could be losing the weapon I need, or the power to cast spells, or yeah, dying. The joke of the fighter cowering from rust monsters is that he'd rather die than lose his stuff, because dying is easier to recover from than losing a truly sweet piece of equipment. Or it was.

Roleplaying games are essentially dolled-up power fantasies in most cases. We want to be strong and wise and smart. We want to be badass. We want to work our wills on the world and have it take heed. And we want to feel like we earned it. Usually.

So taking away a character's potency is taking away the point of the game. Now, a good player will take losses in stride, and see them as ways to challenge a character to excel, or to tell a good story. But there is an expectation on the part of even the most understanding players that the loss won't be permanent. If he dies, he can come back (or make a new character). If the sword is stolen, it can be recovered, or a new one obtained. If the spellcasting is lost, there will be some macguffin that can restore it. The 'loss' is therefore a temporary thing; a challenge to be overcome, not a career-ending thing.

This might make it seem like players are just wusses who can't take a hit, but that's not how I mean it. A game where my wizard is Feebleminded and can't get it fixed would be...stupid. Why would I stick myself with that? It'd be like playing Monopoly where we didn't have any money and just rolled dice to move aimlessly and fruitlessly around the board.

But lurking in the background is that clause in the power-fantasy where we want to feel like we earned it. Too light winning makes the prize light. No pain, no gain. That is deeply part of our genetic memory. The principle is programmed into our brains, where you can actually make someone value something they ordinarily would not, by making them work hard to obtain it. The risk of loss has to either be real, or convincingly portrayed, because having power means nothing without having opposition. Enemies must be crushed, but in order to BE an enemy, it must be a threat. Threat means risk of loss.

So the game offers a compromise. Yes, it says, I will kill you sometimes, but you can get better. You will lose stuff occasionally, but replacements can be had. The threat of immediate loss is real, but because you're a totally awesome badass who I want to buy more of my stuff, I will make sure that -lasting- loss does not happen.

I think it's a reasonable compromise. Different systems draw that line in different spots, and that spot can be customized pretty easily, but the basic principle seems sound.
 

Out of curiosity, KM, is the subtext to almost all your columns going to be "Why I don't like D&D 4e"? This one boils down to "I don't like 4e because death isn't that common". Your previous one boiled down to "I don't like 4e because they made attack rolls consistent". The one before that was "I don't like 4e because I want more challenge and less satisfaction." OK, so the one before that on goblins didn't fit this pattern. But three in a row explicitely saying "I don't like 4e, here's why" makes for a fairly compelling pattern.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I play 4e as my main game, so it's on my mind more often than most other systems. I talk about D&D more than I talk about Feng Shui for similar reasons. It also leads to some more interesting psychological territory than a lot of what I have to say about Pathfinder (the other elephant in the room), given how controversial it was and continues to be, and how many innovative-to-D&D ideas it tired. As the most recent edition of D&D, it also serves as a useful way to illustrate how the iterative process transforms something over time, and makes comparisons and familiar ground easier to find. I like 4e just fine. I don't think I'd play it or pay WotC for it if I wasn't enjoying myself.

In this case, it's a launching point for talking about how loss aversion shapes our playstyle preferences. On a personal level, this train of thought was likely partially triggered when, in the course of playing my 4e game, I recently had a character die (but I've been discussing things like this since the first column, which was about character death). So I can't honestly say that I don't like 4e because death is rare in it. I personally am a living testament to the fact that 4e absolutely can give you permanent character death, and the sense of actual loss associated with that, as a player. I might, though, say that those people who liked the tension that arose from risking actual loss in earlier editions might not like 4e as much, at least in part, because loss is rarer there. And then because I like to figure things out, I look at the reasons why that might be -- why people might want that sense of loss, why 4e (and other games with similar rules) might not deliver it as well to them, what sort of changes may have happened in the rules to change that relationship.

You may be mistaking commentary for criticism. I'd like to hear how you feel about experiencing actual loss yourself, as a player, though. What, if anything, would you like the DM to be able to strip from you against your will as a player? Or would your loss aversion simply turn the experience, like with [MENTION=3565]Scott[/MENTION]2987 's group, into something decidedly un-fun right there? Do you maybe agree with [MENTION=4936]Shayuri[/MENTION] that part of the escapist fun of heroic fantasy is not having to really experience that loss, or are you maybe more like [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION], where the loss aversion is part of the fun, and where you can perhaps tweak the emotions you experience in loss to maybe make them not so severe?
 

Death, where is thy sting?

In my experience on both sides of the screen a PC dying is the least effective kind of loss - and if anything the player that is most affected by it is the DM. The player just shrugs and rolls up a new character (and probably had half a dozen ideas they wanted to play anyway). Loss as in failure in an adventure with consequences is far more lasting, more compelling, and gives much more opportunity for redemption, for immersion, and for storytelling. Indeed the least meaningful losses in RPGs come in Paranoia precisely because death is so expected.

Indeed I'd go so far as to say that one of the features of a more gamelike game is that there is less of a penalty from loss because the stakes aren't so high. This ties in to the fiero/satisfaction divide you mentioned last time. Under fiero losing is an expected part of the game - and you fall so you can pick yourself up again. Satisfaction requires that a loss be driven in to the hilt so that the story completes itself nicely. A meaningless loss (or a meaningless win) is against the spirit of satisfaction - whereas the win or loss of fiero.

The exception, of course, comes when you are using somewhat old school assumptions and a new PC is going to start at first level and it's going to be months of play before they can contribute much more than as a porter or baggage handler most of the time. This, however, leads to a turtly style of play where loss and especially death is probably less likely than it is in 4e.

My comment was based on the fact that just about every comment I see from you about 4e is negative; I don't think I've seen a single positive one from you (and have on occasion found that what you are criticising is local play practices that disagree with the actual rules). 4e changed a lot (especially from 3.X - a lot of the philosophical changes are reversions to older modes of D&D) for both good and ill. And from you the impression I get is that you wish you were playing a different game. What you have to say about it is normally interesting, but as I say I don't think I've seen a single positive comment from you on the subject of 4e and it's been three "Here's what 4e changed - I don't like it" columns in a row.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I'm not sure where you're getting that incorrect impression of my personal opinion from the description of the game, but I don't think it's from my words in this article, at least...

Anyhoo, I can say that IMXP, the DM has been much less affected by character death than the player. The dungeon's still there the next day, and the player looses something they've invested weeks, sometimes months, building up and getting to know. Paranoia is a good example of a game that twists that character death so that it's not a loss for the player anymore.

The distinction between loss for fiero-seeking players and loss for satisfaction-seeking players is an awesome bit of insight. Possibly what loss you can experience is linked to your emotional goals for the game. If you want fiero, for instance, you might have an aversion to a loss of mastery or a loss of challenge, because a failure to win is kind of expected, if that's the goal you seek.

Hmm...got my gears turning there...
 
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Dragoslav

First Post
The player just shrugs and rolls up a new character (and probably had half a dozen ideas they wanted to play anyway). Loss as in failure in an adventure with consequences is far more lasting, more compelling, and gives much more opportunity for redemption, for immersion, and for storytelling.
Pretty much this. For the most part, the death of a PC is a frustrating disappointment for the player and a frustrating stumbling block for the rest of the party. The player has to roll up a new character and doesn't get to engage in the dead character's story, and the party has to do something about the corpse and take a detour to pick up the new PC in some way.

However, if the party fails in an adventure, the consequences are much more interesting, and it creates more tension because the players actually have to change their plans and rethink their next steps -- something that a PC death here and there doesn't provide.

That being said, I think PC death can be interesting under certain conditions:

1) As the result of catastrophically bad planning, with tragic consequences.
2) At crucial points in an adventure, e.g. during a fight against the BBEG as he's about to enact his plan to reshape the face of the world.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
It's interesting to see replies to this wanting to diminish the loss in various ways. I kind of wonder how an RPG version of the loss aversion economic experiment would go...

"You have your character in a fight, with 20 maximum hp. The fight offers you a choice: you can either lose 5 maximum HP from your character forever automatically, or I can flip a coin: heads, you lose 10 maximum hp, tails, you lose none."
 

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