A Loser Is Yuo

Life is full of irrevocable decisions that you cannot take back, and that may change your life forever. Thinking of quitting your job? Thinking of getting a divorce? Thinking of moving cross-country to take an entry-level position at a job you might be more excited for? Pondering having a child, or going to grad school? There's a risk involved in every change, but there's also potential...

Life is full of irrevocable decisions that you cannot take back, and that may change your life forever. Thinking of quitting your job? Thinking of getting a divorce? Thinking of moving cross-country to take an entry-level position at a job you might be more excited for? Pondering having a child, or going to grad school? There's a risk involved in every change, but there's also potential reward, too. Is the risk worth the reward? How can you know, without knowing all the different ways in which this might affect your life?

Turns out, there is a website out there that will help you make that tremendous decision.

It will toss a coin for you.

And it’s not just some fly-by-night click-bait gimmick, either. It’s a serious social science experiment, performed by economists from the University of Chicago, one of the world’s pre-eminent economic schools. A major life decision, possibly affecting the entire rest of your life, left up to a coin toss.

That sense of trepidation you feel right now, of the intimidating risk of this major life change, left up to a coin toss? That's normal. Most people would feel that. It's also deeply irrational.

Loss Aversion and the Left Brain Bias

Let’s say I give you $2,000. That could be pretty useful, right? Imagine all the things you could get with that. It’s a nice chunk of change! But, before you go, I give you a choice: I can either take $500 back, OR, I can let you flip a coin, and if it comes up heads, I’ll take $1,000, but if it comes up tails, I won’t take anything.

If you’re like most people, you’ll want to flip a coin.

This is a bones-deep instinct in people: to preserve what you have against loss. This preference isn’t rational, but the decent chance that you won’t have to give me ANY money is worth the additional risk to you. Loss aversion is hard-wired human behavior. Even monkeys demonstrate it. It makes good biological sense, in a Darwinian sense, to fear that loss.

This is part of why we have a left brain bias: the analysis and detailed thought helps us achieve some control over the possibility of loss. We convince ourselves that we have a better chance to win that coin flip than we actually do (exceptionalism also being an evolutionary advantage), and at least that illusion of control, and that sense of our situation being special, helps us prefer the flip of the coin to the guaranteed loss of $500.

In the games we play, we also have loss aversion: we don’t want our characters to die, we don’t want our plots unraveled. We like to preserve what we create. So you can see, over the last 40 years of D&D, a gradual but perceptible shift toward deeper control, and less catastrophic loss.

To Fail Without Losing

In D&D, unlike in my hypothetical situation above, it is possible to avoid all loss. Your characters never have to die, your plots never have to become unraveled, and hours and hours of magnificent fun can be had, and is had every week, by people whose primary activity is actually the creation of something, rather than its destruction.

That isn’t to say that you don’t suffer setbacks, or failures, playing a character in that game. You may not accomplish your character’s goals, but this lack of gaining is distinct from a loss. A failure for your character, while perhaps tragic and interesting and fun to play through, doesn’t cause the same sort of emotional response that actual loss causes.

So, a distinction can be made. From your character’s perspective, a failure is when they do not advance their goals. If you try to put an end to the orc horde, and are taken prisoner or slain, your character has failed. A loss, from your character’s perspective, happens when they have something taken from them. If the orc horde killed your character’s daughter, or if they took your character’s magical axe, your character has lost something. They can be the same thing, but they can also be different: your character might get their axe stolen while still beating back the horde (losing without failure), or your character might keep their axe but fail to stop the orcs’ advance (failure without losing).

In general, the player feels these failures and losses along with their character. It’s no accident that DM advice over the ages has advocated more and more for minimizing loss. If your player has something that’s important to them and/or their character, the more recent gaming advice would be to let them have it and keep it and not to cause them any anxiety about losing it. You don’t threaten to actually kill a PC’s family. You don’t take a PC’s iconic weapon. You don’t kill characters unless you have to. You don’t cause loss, as a DM. A player is invested in these character traits, so they are fairly off-limits. Loss is such a powerful motivator, that the DM is told not to ever seriously activate it, because it can ruin entire play sessions. This is distinct from early-edition advice that had no qualms with fairly common death, easily horrible equipment damage, and magic spells that focused on making the player suffer some real loss.

The thing with loss is that it can never be entirely consensual, if it is to be a true loss. Something you willingly give up isn’t a loss, and neither is simply failing to gain something. Loss takes what you have, what you want to keep, and separates you from it. And, emotionally speaking, that’s dangerous territory. It’s no surprise the game has moved toward controlling that loss.

A Controlled Story

While anyone who plays a sport or a game of poker at some point is going to feel loss, the same is not necessarily true of the stories we encounter in our books or movies. Especially in the genre of heroic fantasy, loss is a rare sensation. Passive media certainly can make one feel loss (think of the way you felt during the first few minutes of Up– that’s loss you’re experiencing, the same loss the protagonist is experiencing), but there’s a lot of things about the expectations of the genres we traffic in that loss will not play a big part in the story. The characters we play are motherless murderhobos, or exceptional heroes, or doomed investigators, or otherwise exceptional and magical people who all share one major thing in common: they don’t have much that they can actually lose as long as the story goes on.

Even when loss does occur, either in-genre or out, it always has a purpose. Losing at poker or monopoly or dominos can be frustrating and difficult and even random or inexplicable, but when a loss occurs in our stories, we demand an explanation, a reason, a cause, and a greater purpose.

This is loss at its most controlled, dispensed rarely, and only for very specific ends. In an RPG, this kind of loss can look something like a mechanic known as the “death flag.”

Typically, in a game that uses the death flag, your character will never die. They may fail, they may struggle, but you as a player will never lose this character that you have put so much work into creating and playing – that loss is off-limits.

Unless you opt into it, by “raising the death flag” at the moment that is important to your character. You control the loss you may experience as a player. In the coin toss at the beginning, you now know for sure: there’s no chance you’re going to lose that $1,000 unless you allow it, transforming loss into sacrifice.

The Thrill Of Losing

Despite 40 years and a general tendency toward avoiding loss in our games, we’re still at the point, as of 4e, where we still want rules for loss in the game. Characters can still die. In 4e, it’s kind of exceptional and requires bending the system a little bit, or a run of VERY bad luck, but it can and does happen. Some folks even use house rules like increased monster damage to make it more likely to happen. We know, on some level, that removing it entirely would be somehow…less fun. A basic 4e character is never deprived of their powers, gets whatever magic items they ask for, and, as a typical fantasy-genre hero, has no familial attachments of any great note. But they can still die. The player can still lose the character. And we want to keep that in the mix as a possibility.

Given that loss is something we avoid so vehemently, why do we want to keep even that remnant in?

Well, the truth is that some folks don’t, and they’re very comfortable with a 4e with the hypothetical possibility of character death that is rarely, if ever, actually employed. This makes them part and parcel of the more story-like, controlled style mentioned above.

But for those that cling to it, it provides something useful to them: an element of danger, the thrill of potential defeat.

Groups, of course, vary with how often they would like to employ potential defeat. Even simply being out there in the abstract most of the time, such as in 4e, it is more than enough for some people. However, one of the highlights of a more “game-like” kind of game is that this loss is more real and more prominent. Not simply failure, but actual loss, so that the player actually experiences an aversion. This is the core element of something like the old D&D cartoon with the armored guy cowering from the rust monster. This was also what the player was feeling: a severe aversion to losing their hard-earned (and often magical) equipment. If the player themselves is not scared of the consequences of going into the dungeon, for some game-centric playstyles, the game does not feature enough actual loss.

What Do You Want To Lose?

This week’s audience question is a bit of a tougher one to pose than in most weeks. What I’d really like to ask is what you would want to lose in your own gameplay, what you’d be willing to give up…but that kind of misses the point. The moment you’re willing to give it up, it stops being a loss.

So instead, let me tackle this from the other side: what do you like most about your favorite characters? And how much would you be able to tolerate the DM taking that from them, before it became un-fun? Would you be OK with your brave strong fighter becoming cowardly and weak? Or your smart mage becoming dumb? What about having your god shun you as a cleric, or experiencing a fall from grace as a paladin? How much can you lose, and still have fun with your game?
 

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Dragoslav

First Post
"You have your character in a fight, with 20 maximum hp. The fight offers you a choice: you can either lose 5 maximum HP from your character forever automatically, or I can flip a coin: heads, you lose 10 maximum hp, tails, you lose none."
This is perhaps tangential to the thought experiment, which is focused on probability and mathematics, but I'd rather see this: Your character can either lose 10 maximum HP forever and save his father from a collapsing tower, or your character can do nothing and his father will die.

Every time your character gets dropped to 0 HP, you'd think, "Man, if only I had another 10 HP I'd still be up, but it was worth it." Alternatively, "Man, if I didn't have that 10 extra HP, I would have gotten knocked out!"
 

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I'm not sure where you're getting that incorrect impression of my personal opinion from the description of the game, but I don't think it's from my words in this article, at least...

I will mention at this point I know at least two other prolific posters have that impression and it certainly predates this article. I mentioned in a PM to another of the 4e fans on this board months ago that I found the distinct anti-4e bias of one of the mods here annoying. Two names came back - yours was the one I wasn't thinking of. You've also been quoted extensively at least twice on the Something Awful grognards.txt thread (by someone who was banned from ENWorld a long time ago) as an example of an ENWorld moderator showing serious bias against 4e, and I'm pretty sure the first person I mentioned wasn't a Goon.

I think what's going on is that you are trying to pick apart to better understand something you like - and it's taken as picking something apart. I've done this so many times in the past.

Anyhoo, I can say that IMXP, the DM has been much less affected by character death than the player. The dungeon's still there the next day, and the player looses something they've invested weeks, sometimes months, building up and getting to know. Paranoia is a good example of a game that twists that character death so that it's not a loss for the player anymore.

The distinction between loss for fiero-seeking players and loss for satisfaction-seeking players is an awesome bit of insight. Possibly what loss you can experience is linked to your emotional goals for the game. If you want fiero, for instance, you might have an aversion to a loss of mastery or a loss of challenge, because a failure to win is kind of expected, if that's the goal you seek.

Hmm...got my fears turning there...

I think at this point we're getting closer to the heart of the issue. Satisfaction-seeking players are quite happy playing the awesome Fiasco in which everything goes horribly wrong for two hours. We're also getting quite close to the Pemertonian scene framing thread.

To expand, I scene frame as a matter of course and run a highly improvised game most of the time. (Not always; I enjoyed running Caverns of Thracia).

One of the bigger Combat as War sections I've ran basically started "You have thirty six ogres coming towards your town - each one of them is at least the level of your PCs and they are lead by a Hellpact Warlock. Challenge? Yes. The PCs knew that literally until the final showdown they could not win a fight with the ogres (other than the single "mug the sentry" attempt). What they could do was hit and run (or more often hit and hide - we had a hunter, a scout, a thief, and a vampire) and judge when to bug out. Fiero? Oh hell yes (and I'm not sure whether the death of the Invoker in mortal combat with the Hellpact Warlock defending her inner sanctum was a fiero loss or even a satisfaction win - that was how the dice came out). But the PCs helped me set the scenes, saying what they were doing, and setting how to tackle the challenges. The players had almost as much input into the world as I did - and the whole arc was very high fiero for each scene even if it was a satisfaction-arc.

But had the PCs died before that final showdown I'd probably have blamed myself. I literally didn't know until the session started how they'd try tackling the ogres, and the ogre reinforcement pattern was different in three of the four sessions of trying to thin them out and made up on the spur of the moment (the fourth was meant to be overwhelming force and a PC victory was rescuing the kobolds - but my dice deserted me and it turned into a comedy).

This is an extremely different situation from a pre-set dungeon that will indeed always be there. And when you run that open, overpitching and accidently killing a PC (as opposed to a Darwin Award) is a worry.
 

pemerton

Legend
I don't think I follow all this column.

Loss aversion, as studied by economists and psychologists, pertains to people's preferences. It is "irrational" insofar as people make choices that actually reduce expected utility (though it is questionable whether maximising exected utility, as opposed to - say - maximising the minimum outcome - is always rational).

It's not simple to explain how playing an RPG contributes to utility, but presumably that is via pleasurable experiences that combine emotion, intellect, sociality, etc.

Given that no one is forced to play RPGs, nor is the typical ENworlder being paid to play, I assume that all RPGers are acting on an expectation that playing will deliver more utility than not playing. An instance of "loss aversion" in this context might be, for instance, sticking to a known game with a known group, rather than trying a well-reviewed new game with a clearly dynamic and high-energy new group, on the "better the devil you know" principle.

But looking at features of mechanical design seem pretty orthogonal to this. Some people like character-centred, story-now play - and in that sort of play, "fail forward" is the norm in action resolution and typically PC death will not occur in an unforseeable, non-dramatic way. Others (eg [MENTION=6688858]Libramarian[/MENTION] on these boards as a particularly articlute advocate) prefer overtly gamist play in which the thrill of losing your PC, or all your treasure, and of outwitting the GM, is part of the pleasure of play.

I don't think the economic analysis of loss-aversion has much light to shed on the differences of preference, anymore than it will tell us why some people prefer Die Hard to Casablanca, and others vice versa.

Perhaps the psychological analysis has more to say, if it can tell us something about the complex sorts of identification, projection and displacement that are involved in RPGing. But personally I'm not sure that general and abstract principles of psyhchology have much to tell us about why one person enjoys poker, another chess, another a cooperative game like Forbidden Island, and another doesn't like games at all but enjoys writing music or poetry. Likewise for RPGing preferences, in my view.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The idea is that people are loss averse: they prefer not to lose things that they possess. This applies to the imaginary things they may possess, as well: people don't want to lose their characters, or their treasured equipment, or their notable NPC's, or whatever. Some groups seem to prefer a game with more notable loss than others (as seen in how early D&D easily killed characters and destroyed equipment and figured that was part of the gameplay, while modern D&D only contains a fairly distant possibility of any sort of loss, in this sense, in the RAW mechanics of the game). So it's pretty clear that different levels of loss are tolerated differently in different games at different tables. That difference is worth exploring.

Poker features more loss than chess or basketball for instance (in that it's gambling). It's part of the appeal of poker for some folks. What's the point, after all, if nothing is at stake?
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
"Star Trek: Generations" is a pretty dire film, but Kirk's absolutely right when he notes that he needs that risk of losing or the game's no fun.
Couldn't XP but right on the mark, and this is a great reference. Not the best movie ever made, but one that touches on some big ideas.

And indeed Kirk is right. Taking the same reason to D&D, I firmly believe that there is no point in playing the game if success is assured.

So instead, let me tackle this from the other side: what do you like most about your favorite characters? And how much would you be able to tolerate the DM taking that from them, before it became un-fun? Would you be OK with your brave strong fighter becoming cowardly and weak? Or your smart mage becoming dumb? What about having your god shun you as a cleric, or experiencing a fall from grace as a paladin? How much can you lose, and still have fun with your game?
Personally one of the reasons why I DM is because I'm not much into "roleplaying" in the literal sense. I don't invest much in any particular character, more in the story as a whole. From a DM perspective, this is a scary question: "how much will your players let you torture them before they leave?"

In either vein, I'm hard-pressed to say that anything is off limits, merely that discretion needs to be applied in any given situation. I wish I had a better answer than that; it's an interestingly framed question.
 

I think this varies a lot from person to person and group to group. Since I have been in the hobby there have been folks who protect PCs from loss, those who maybe over do it and those who strive for something in the middle. I remember alot of the GM advice from the 90s advised against killing pcs unless they did something unwise or reckless (or some variation on that). For me, I find much of the fun stems from the risk of loss (not the loss itself, but the risk of it). So I like games where character death is always a possiblility and I roll in the open and let the dice fall where they may. Though I will say it does depend on the game. If I am playing something like james bond, you expect more elasticity around dying. But just in terms of D&D, i like a bit of lethality in the campaign.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Just wanted to say that I liked this column, KM (can't XP), as well as many of the responses (can't XP, again). I think there are a lot of good voices on EN World at the moment.
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
Great article, very insightful

For me, the possibility of loss, especially my PC dying, is critical to my enjoyment to the game. From a roleplaying point of view, my suspension of disbelief goes *poink* as soon as I realize that I'm in supposedly deadly combat but I can't die. From a game point of view, combat without the possibility of death is like a FPS on god-mode, fun for about 5 minutes then really boring. I can't say that I've ever liked having my PC die, but knowing that there's a risk is critical to my enjoyment.

And I've found that to feel that risk, the loss has to happen occasionally. If it doesn't I might know it's possible on an intellectual level, but still not really believe it on an emotional level.

A standard counterargument is that we don't have any problem watching a James Bond movie and knowing Bond won't die. My standard counter-counterargument is that RPGs aren't books or movies. I play to experience fantasy worlds like those in literature first hand, but that doesn't mean I want plot immunity.

The only loss I can think of that would make a PC not fun for me would be a permanent involuntary personality change, and even some of those are alright. Frex, the roleplaying challenge from a helm of alignment change is kind of fun. As long as the DM is competent, he can make adventures fun for characters who are impaired. I've been in groups where we had lots of fun with "you lost all your gear" scenarios, both as a DM and a player. And even a permanent involuntary personality change is no worse than the PC dying, since I can always retire or kill the PC if I don't enjoy him anymore.
 
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SethDrebitko

First Post
Personally nothing is generally off the table when it comes to character loss for me. Without experiencing some losses the wins don't seem very substantial.
 

pemerton

Legend
What is winning in this context?

For instance, I've GMed for players who are very experienced and aggressive wargamers/M:TG players. For them, "winning" is not keeping their PCs alive - it's demonstrating expert resource management and rules mastery in the coures of playing their PCs (always mages, of course.

I don't think numbers on the PC sheet getting bigger or smaller is always the measure of winning/losing.
 

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