A Loser Is Yuo

Life is full of irrevocable decisions that you cannot take back, and that may change your life forever. Thinking of quitting your job? Thinking of getting a divorce? Thinking of moving cross-country to take an entry-level position at a job you might be more excited for? Pondering having a child, or going to grad school? There's a risk involved in every change, but there's also potential...

Life is full of irrevocable decisions that you cannot take back, and that may change your life forever. Thinking of quitting your job? Thinking of getting a divorce? Thinking of moving cross-country to take an entry-level position at a job you might be more excited for? Pondering having a child, or going to grad school? There's a risk involved in every change, but there's also potential reward, too. Is the risk worth the reward? How can you know, without knowing all the different ways in which this might affect your life?

Turns out, there is a website out there that will help you make that tremendous decision.

It will toss a coin for you.

And it’s not just some fly-by-night click-bait gimmick, either. It’s a serious social science experiment, performed by economists from the University of Chicago, one of the world’s pre-eminent economic schools. A major life decision, possibly affecting the entire rest of your life, left up to a coin toss.

That sense of trepidation you feel right now, of the intimidating risk of this major life change, left up to a coin toss? That's normal. Most people would feel that. It's also deeply irrational.

Loss Aversion and the Left Brain Bias

Let’s say I give you $2,000. That could be pretty useful, right? Imagine all the things you could get with that. It’s a nice chunk of change! But, before you go, I give you a choice: I can either take $500 back, OR, I can let you flip a coin, and if it comes up heads, I’ll take $1,000, but if it comes up tails, I won’t take anything.

If you’re like most people, you’ll want to flip a coin.

This is a bones-deep instinct in people: to preserve what you have against loss. This preference isn’t rational, but the decent chance that you won’t have to give me ANY money is worth the additional risk to you. Loss aversion is hard-wired human behavior. Even monkeys demonstrate it. It makes good biological sense, in a Darwinian sense, to fear that loss.

This is part of why we have a left brain bias: the analysis and detailed thought helps us achieve some control over the possibility of loss. We convince ourselves that we have a better chance to win that coin flip than we actually do (exceptionalism also being an evolutionary advantage), and at least that illusion of control, and that sense of our situation being special, helps us prefer the flip of the coin to the guaranteed loss of $500.

In the games we play, we also have loss aversion: we don’t want our characters to die, we don’t want our plots unraveled. We like to preserve what we create. So you can see, over the last 40 years of D&D, a gradual but perceptible shift toward deeper control, and less catastrophic loss.

To Fail Without Losing

In D&D, unlike in my hypothetical situation above, it is possible to avoid all loss. Your characters never have to die, your plots never have to become unraveled, and hours and hours of magnificent fun can be had, and is had every week, by people whose primary activity is actually the creation of something, rather than its destruction.

That isn’t to say that you don’t suffer setbacks, or failures, playing a character in that game. You may not accomplish your character’s goals, but this lack of gaining is distinct from a loss. A failure for your character, while perhaps tragic and interesting and fun to play through, doesn’t cause the same sort of emotional response that actual loss causes.

So, a distinction can be made. From your character’s perspective, a failure is when they do not advance their goals. If you try to put an end to the orc horde, and are taken prisoner or slain, your character has failed. A loss, from your character’s perspective, happens when they have something taken from them. If the orc horde killed your character’s daughter, or if they took your character’s magical axe, your character has lost something. They can be the same thing, but they can also be different: your character might get their axe stolen while still beating back the horde (losing without failure), or your character might keep their axe but fail to stop the orcs’ advance (failure without losing).

In general, the player feels these failures and losses along with their character. It’s no accident that DM advice over the ages has advocated more and more for minimizing loss. If your player has something that’s important to them and/or their character, the more recent gaming advice would be to let them have it and keep it and not to cause them any anxiety about losing it. You don’t threaten to actually kill a PC’s family. You don’t take a PC’s iconic weapon. You don’t kill characters unless you have to. You don’t cause loss, as a DM. A player is invested in these character traits, so they are fairly off-limits. Loss is such a powerful motivator, that the DM is told not to ever seriously activate it, because it can ruin entire play sessions. This is distinct from early-edition advice that had no qualms with fairly common death, easily horrible equipment damage, and magic spells that focused on making the player suffer some real loss.

The thing with loss is that it can never be entirely consensual, if it is to be a true loss. Something you willingly give up isn’t a loss, and neither is simply failing to gain something. Loss takes what you have, what you want to keep, and separates you from it. And, emotionally speaking, that’s dangerous territory. It’s no surprise the game has moved toward controlling that loss.

A Controlled Story

While anyone who plays a sport or a game of poker at some point is going to feel loss, the same is not necessarily true of the stories we encounter in our books or movies. Especially in the genre of heroic fantasy, loss is a rare sensation. Passive media certainly can make one feel loss (think of the way you felt during the first few minutes of Up– that’s loss you’re experiencing, the same loss the protagonist is experiencing), but there’s a lot of things about the expectations of the genres we traffic in that loss will not play a big part in the story. The characters we play are motherless murderhobos, or exceptional heroes, or doomed investigators, or otherwise exceptional and magical people who all share one major thing in common: they don’t have much that they can actually lose as long as the story goes on.

Even when loss does occur, either in-genre or out, it always has a purpose. Losing at poker or monopoly or dominos can be frustrating and difficult and even random or inexplicable, but when a loss occurs in our stories, we demand an explanation, a reason, a cause, and a greater purpose.

This is loss at its most controlled, dispensed rarely, and only for very specific ends. In an RPG, this kind of loss can look something like a mechanic known as the “death flag.”

Typically, in a game that uses the death flag, your character will never die. They may fail, they may struggle, but you as a player will never lose this character that you have put so much work into creating and playing – that loss is off-limits.

Unless you opt into it, by “raising the death flag” at the moment that is important to your character. You control the loss you may experience as a player. In the coin toss at the beginning, you now know for sure: there’s no chance you’re going to lose that $1,000 unless you allow it, transforming loss into sacrifice.

The Thrill Of Losing

Despite 40 years and a general tendency toward avoiding loss in our games, we’re still at the point, as of 4e, where we still want rules for loss in the game. Characters can still die. In 4e, it’s kind of exceptional and requires bending the system a little bit, or a run of VERY bad luck, but it can and does happen. Some folks even use house rules like increased monster damage to make it more likely to happen. We know, on some level, that removing it entirely would be somehow…less fun. A basic 4e character is never deprived of their powers, gets whatever magic items they ask for, and, as a typical fantasy-genre hero, has no familial attachments of any great note. But they can still die. The player can still lose the character. And we want to keep that in the mix as a possibility.

Given that loss is something we avoid so vehemently, why do we want to keep even that remnant in?

Well, the truth is that some folks don’t, and they’re very comfortable with a 4e with the hypothetical possibility of character death that is rarely, if ever, actually employed. This makes them part and parcel of the more story-like, controlled style mentioned above.

But for those that cling to it, it provides something useful to them: an element of danger, the thrill of potential defeat.

Groups, of course, vary with how often they would like to employ potential defeat. Even simply being out there in the abstract most of the time, such as in 4e, it is more than enough for some people. However, one of the highlights of a more “game-like” kind of game is that this loss is more real and more prominent. Not simply failure, but actual loss, so that the player actually experiences an aversion. This is the core element of something like the old D&D cartoon with the armored guy cowering from the rust monster. This was also what the player was feeling: a severe aversion to losing their hard-earned (and often magical) equipment. If the player themselves is not scared of the consequences of going into the dungeon, for some game-centric playstyles, the game does not feature enough actual loss.

What Do You Want To Lose?

This week’s audience question is a bit of a tougher one to pose than in most weeks. What I’d really like to ask is what you would want to lose in your own gameplay, what you’d be willing to give up…but that kind of misses the point. The moment you’re willing to give it up, it stops being a loss.

So instead, let me tackle this from the other side: what do you like most about your favorite characters? And how much would you be able to tolerate the DM taking that from them, before it became un-fun? Would you be OK with your brave strong fighter becoming cowardly and weak? Or your smart mage becoming dumb? What about having your god shun you as a cleric, or experiencing a fall from grace as a paladin? How much can you lose, and still have fun with your game?
 

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Libramarian

Adventurer
But looking at features of mechanical design seem pretty orthogonal to this. Some people like character-centred, story-now play - and in that sort of play, "fail forward" is the norm in action resolution and typically PC death will not occur in an unforseeable, non-dramatic way. Others (eg @Libramarian on these boards as a particularly articlute advocate) prefer overtly gamist play in which the thrill of losing your PC, or all your treasure, and of outwitting the GM, is part of the pleasure of play.

Thanks for the compliment :)
The idea is that people are loss averse: they prefer not to lose things that they possess.
Well that's trivially true, so I don't think that's the point of this research. IIRC from the "Risk, Choice and Rationality" class I took a few years ago, the interesting result here is that people are risk-averse in the domain of gains, but risk-seeking in the domain of losses. e.g.

If you offer people a choice between $20 guaranteed and a 50% chance at $50, most people will take the $20.

but,

If you offer people a choice between a $20 loss guaranteed, and a 50% chance of a $50 loss, most people will take the gamble.

Basically, when people are winning, they tend to want to "take the money and run", but when people are losing, they find it difficult to "cut their losses".

Classic start-over-at-level-1 D&D challenges the players to deal with risk in a measured, at least fairly rational way as part of its gamist/challenge-the-player agenda, which I like, but it's true that it can lead to some emotional situations. A few years ago I was running a houseruled Castles & Crusades game where the players had a finite amount of fate points they could use to add a d6 bonus to any d20 roll. One PC slipped into negative HP and was down to -9 before another PC reached them to make a stabilize check. They had only one chance to save the dying PC, but the player chose to try to make the roll without using a fate point. They failed it, which caused the player of the dead PC to end the session in anger, and the two players had to talk it over OOG before we could play again.

Last year in my 1e game, the same player that gambled on the stabilize roll (he tends to play risky) liked to scout out new dungeon areas in advance of the rest of the party with his character. The scout role and payoff were never formally agreed upon, but the rule seemed to be that if he found a magic item while scouting ahead he would have first choice to keep it, or at least a stronger argument over it. Early on he died twice, once bitten by a poisonous snake down a well and once eaten by ghouls. He was upset and kind of embarrassed so I actually had to coax him back into the game. Later he found a ring of invisibility and a ring of elemental command:air, and he moved up a few levels on the assassination chart, so he became more effective as a scout and I think started getting the better of that deal (although the half-orc Fighter with 18/70-something Str, battle axe & shield +2, and plate armor was still the most impressive character).

Anyways, if a game avoids or downplays the possibility of player loss in some aspect because it works against drama/narrative cohesion (e.g. killing off the protagonist all the time), then I can understand how that would be valuable to people who prefer a more story-based than challenge-based type of game. If I don't see how it would be important to story-based play and it feels like the designer is just working from the premise that "frustration = bad" then I'm going to be more critical.
 

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SethDrebitko

First Post
What is winning in this context?

For instance, I've GMed for players who are very experienced and aggressive wargamers/M:TG players. For them, "winning" is not keeping their PCs alive - it's demonstrating expert resource management and rules mastery in the coures of playing their PCs (always mages, of course.

I don't think numbers on the PC sheet getting bigger or smaller is always the measure of winning/losing.

The win I suppose is fulfilling the characters goals, or their experience of personal development.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
pemerton said:
For instance, I've GMed for players who are very experienced and aggressive wargamers/M:TG players. For them, "winning" is not keeping their PCs alive - it's demonstrating expert resource management and rules mastery in the coures of playing their PCs (always mages, of course.

...one of these days, I'm going to have to devote an entire article toward fiero, but at this point, for this article, there's no real examination of what it means to "win." It could mean accomplishing a character goal, a bigger number, or just avoiding a loss for another night. This article isn't concerned with loss as "the opposite of winning," as much as it is concerned with loss as "You have something you want to keep, and I am going to take it away from you." That's not always your character, but I believe that it's reasonably common for a character to have at least a small element of this, given that most characters contain at least some emotional investment that can then be loss if the character is forever gone.

The opposite of that kind of loss would be "You have something you want to get, and I give you some of it." For this article, it doesn't matter what that something is, as much as it matters that certain playstyles emphasize simply not giving it to you, and other playstyles emphasize taking something you want from you. If you play the game for big numbers, perhaps you get ever-increasing penalties. If you play the game for storyline purposes, perhaps your character becomes more marginalized. If you play the game to tweak options, perhaps you actually loose options, becoming a simpler character.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
I tend to get emotionally attached to characters after playing them for a long time. My pcs usually have a well-developed background and a 'hierarchy' of goals.
I enjoy challenging encounters if they're not too frequent and if there's something at stake that 'matters' in the context of the campaign or my personal story.

When one of my characters dies (permanently) after having achieved a fair number of goals I definitely feel the loss. I think the main reason is his 'unfinished' story and it makes me sad to think about the events that will never happen because he died 'early'.
When I roll up a new pc, I usually try to make him as different from the previous pc as possible. I hate repeating myself or even recycling (parts of) old pcs.

My current 4e Dark Sun character has just arrived at a point where I'd hate to see him die: It's an evil Dray sorcerer and Templar of Dregoth planning to infiltrate the cities to bring about the downfall of the other sorcerer kings to pave the way for his master. I didn't actually expect him to make it very far, but now I tremendously enjoy playing the character. His backstory has actually come to drive most of the campaign so far, so apparently my GMs also like the pc and several close encounters showed they don't want to see him die just because of a bad die roll or two.
If the character is to die (or being forced to retire) I'd like it to be in a way that is 'significant'. E.g. I would be fine with him being exposed as a spy or uncovering his true goals leading to his demise. But being slain by bandits? Not so much.

I quite fondly remember a pc in a Runequest campaign who was basically a village priest who was forced to go out and proactively defend his village from a nearby temple of chaos. After succeeding in rooting out the cultists and destroying the temple I felt the most reasonable course for the character was to basically retire from adventuring at least for a time, to rebuild and fortify the village. So my GM decided to have an army arrive, burn down the village and slaying everyone while I was away on a short trip to a nearby city. I was quite annoyed about this initially but came to realize that this was probably for the better of the campaign. I felt my character's loss, though, and decided to have him swear revenge, forgetting about his previous priorities and basically turned him into a completely different character.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Well, personally I often find myself on the other side of the specter, I like creating fun an "snowflakish" characters, give them quirks, defects, flaws, desires, goals, motivations, seeing them grow and learn (or not). But I don't really develop emotional ties to them, in the end I don't mind seeing them die, while I like to think of my characters as real people, I don't feel them gone as a big loss, it even happens that the rest of the table is more invested on my character than myself!. But again if my character doesn't have a reasonable chance of dying when doing dangerous stuff he doesn't feel real enough. Having a premature death is always sad, but the death of a character doesn't necessarilly imply the end of his story.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I think that this is a very insightful article. My players are highly loss-averse, not just in the game itself, but when it comes to designing characters.

The idea here is that they have a character idea in mind, and if something happens that gets in the way of making a particular kind of character, it's not thought of as a challenge to be grappled with (e.g. "how do I modify my core concept of this character to fit with the closest approximation that I can generate with what I've got here?"), but as a flaw in the system that is imperiling their fun.

I've had characters who wanted to play paladins, but couldn't stomach the Lawful Good/paladin's code part of the class, for example, and were irritated when I (as the GM) wouldn't waive that part of the class for them. Restrictions have become part of the sense of loss...which I think is a loss for the game as a whole.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I think that this is a very insightful article. My players are highly loss-averse, not just in the game itself, but when it comes to designing characters.

The idea here is that they have a character idea in mind, and if something happens that gets in the way of making a particular kind of character, it's not thought of as a challenge to be grappled with (e.g. "how do I modify my core concept of this character to fit with the closest approximation that I can generate with what I've got here?"), but as a flaw in the system that is imperiling their fun.

I've had characters who wanted to play paladins, but couldn't stomach the Lawful Good/paladin's code part of the class, for example, and were irritated when I (as the GM) wouldn't waive that part of the class for them. Restrictions have become part of the sense of loss...which I think is a loss for the game as a whole.

I share your concern, limits are a good thing to have, and it's a shame not to have them. In fact I find it fun to play paladins because of their code, and not because I like to play knight templars, actually the oppossite, the balancing act that comes from respecting the code and having my character be an individual is a very interesting one.
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
But looking at features of mechanical design seem pretty orthogonal to this. Some people like character-centred, story-now play - and in that sort of play, "fail forward" is the norm in action resolution and typically PC death will not occur in an unforseeable, non-dramatic way. Others (eg [MENTION=6688858]Libramarian[/MENTION] on these boards as a particularly articlute advocate) prefer overtly gamist play in which the thrill of losing your PC, or all your treasure, and of outwitting the GM, is part of the pleasure of play.

There's an entirely unjustified leap in there. There is no particular connection between being willing to accept loss in an RPG and a preference for "story" vs gamist play.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
"Fail Forward" seems to me at first blush to be a way to mitigate loss: something bad might happen, but everything you like about playing keeps going along anyway. A way that an actual loss might work if you're story-focused is to destroy the storyline, to make the characters less central, to the part of the game you're interested in goes away. Of course, then you can start the story all over again.

Which actually goes back to character death as a loss: not only do your numbers die, your storylines die, too.
 

"Fail Forward" seems to me at first blush to be a way to mitigate loss: something bad might happen, but everything you like about playing keeps going along anyway. A way that an actual loss might work if you're story-focused is to destroy the storyline, to make the characters less central, to the part of the game you're interested in goes away. Of course, then you can start the story all over again.

Which actually goes back to character death as a loss: not only do your numbers die, your storylines die, too.

That is precisely where I thought you were going with things when I read this article; "fail forward" as plot protection as endemic to your theory. That is one of the reasons why I was a bit ? when I read it.

"Failing Forward" is a means to allow for diversity of outcomes in the oft binary world of task resolution. "Plot protection" may emerge from that but it is entirely a 2nd order function. The point is to not have every single task be 2 possible outcomes, but potentially 8, 10, 20, or more. The rigid constraints of binary tea-leaf reading of task resolution can make for a stale, dynamically inert game session after a few years under your belt at the table. Every game, every micro-task, ever conflict starts looking the same and can become tedious. "Failing forward" is no more plot protection than "Success with adversity" is a spiteful GM screwing the PCs out of their agency. Its just a means to embolden the group/GM toward a wider array of outcomes and thus a potential broader narrative rendering.
 

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