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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 368165" data-attributes="member: 2020">What I am giving an opinion of, and what I think Galadriel saw, Umbran, is this:  Yes, Boromir was bound and determined to have that Ring, just as you have said.  So, yes, Boromir tries to take the Ring - as foretold by Galadriel - whether Gandalf the Grey is with them (having theoretically survived Moria) or whether he is not.  However, there is a fundamental problem with dealing with Boromir, and it's tied up with Tolkien's philosophy.  If the party (with Gandalf or without Gandalf, it does not matter) KILLS Boromir - even because he is charging straight at Frodo with his sword out - it darkens the hearts and minds of everyone in the Fellowship.  Whether it's an act of combat, an act of self-defense, or an act of murder, Boromir is dead, and his blood - like it or not - is on the hands of the Fellowship.  The justifications, rationalizations, and the Whys of the matter, do not matter here.  The One Ring's lure is strengthened over those who are darkened of heart and mind.  It was a fundamental bit of Tolkien philosophy that this was so.    Witness Denethor.  A man bowed by his responsibility, in great pain due to the loss of his son - in other words darkened in heart and mind, and look at his actions:  He wished his own son, Faramir, dead, to his face.  He declared Boromir would have brought him the Ring, and given it to him - which was patently absurd, and Denethor was renown for his wisdom, so obviously wisdom had failed here.  He declared himself strong enough to wield the Ring, or at least to TRY to wield it, and that was patently absurd also.  So, the death of Boromir, whether justified or not, weakens Frodo.  Frodo, cannot afford to be weakened by the knowledge his own Fellowship killed Boromir.  That weakening, might make the difference between  the One Ring conquering Frodo prior to his arrival at Mount Doom, and Frodo making it to Mount Doom unconquered.  And the problem does not end there.  If the Fellowship drives Boromir off, we have Gollum Number Two on Frodo's tail.  And THIS Gollum, is bigger, stronger, and much better in combat, than Frodo or Sam.  Frodo and Sam, who were in over their heads before, now must contend with Boromir as well.  There is no question that Boromir would chase them, in my opinion.  Boromir, after returning to lucidity briefly, would fall to the corruption again, and the stalking would begin.  So, what if the Fellowship sees they cannot kill Boromir, and they cannot drive him off?  What to do?  Bring him alone, on a leash?  That is, indeed, what Frodo choose to do (I stress FRODO chose this wise course of action ... and not Samwise Gamgee)  However, with Boromir it's a different kettle of fish.  Boromir cannot be subdued by promises made in sight of the Precious.  Boromir, probably cannot be subdued, at all.  And so, they must constantly watch him, day and night - at least two of the Fellowship must go with Boromir, so that they can keep alternating watches.  That's really great!  NOT.  Who is to go with Frodo, then?    They wanted to go with Frodo.  Who goes, with two of the Fellowship (and not Merry and Pippin!!) having to stay behind to guard Boromir?  Of course, there is a good chance Boromir escapes, and there is some chance he kills one or both of his captors in the process.  - - -  Gimli said:  Then it gets even better!  So it is, in the case here.  Let us assume Gimli and Legolas decide to stay behind with Boromir, while Gandalf and all the rest of the Fellowship go with Frodo (at least to the borders of Mordor, states Gandalf.)  Now, the Ring exerts it's corrupting influence, just as Galadriel predicted.  A SECOND member of the Fellowship crumbles and tries to take the Ring.  The remaining Fellowship must once more decide what to do.  Kill this second member, which darkens them, and strengthens the One Ring ...  Leave the person to die in the waste, a dark act that strengthens the One Ring ...  Take the person along on a leash, which imperils them all.  Send the person back under guard, which takes out another of the Fellowship to do so ...  Send the person back alone, in which case we have Gollum Number 3.  This repetitive pattern continues until only Frodo and Sam, and maybe Gandalf and Aragorn, are left.  Gandalf cannot, perhaps, enter Mordor at all without being spotted.  If Aragorn continues, the Ring may claim him.  Anyway you cut it, it comes up Frodo and Sam, alone in Mordor, alone at Mount Doom.  Just as Galadriel, in effect, said it would be.  How is the logic above wrong?  - - -  The point of the logic above was to show that Galadriel's statements were true:  To be a Ringbearer, Frodo, is to be alone.  And if you cannot find the way, no one will.  The equivalent (to the person who has never read Tolkien) of a genius telling a bright but uneducated person that he must build a mighty bridge alone, and the team of construction engineers that came to help him, he must send away.  Yet, this is the truth - only the bright, uneducated man CAN hope to build the bridge, and if the construction engineers stay to help, the bridge doesn't get built.  Illogical, perhaps, in the Real World, but quite logical in Middle Earth.  The genius of Peter Jackson is that he brought the logic of Middle Earth - Tolkien's logic - to the viewer in such a way that everyone (Tolkien reader or not) could see that logic.  And he did it, with Galadriel's body language, with some images in the Mirror, and with a few choice words from Galadriel herself.  Now, if my chain of logic above (the Fellowship falling apart) is wrong, then I must re-examine the entire issue.  However, just how, Umbran, is my chain of logic wrong?  In what way can ANY member of the Fellowship, other than Frodo or Sam, make it - even theoretically! - to Mount Doom?</blockquote>

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