A major compliment to Peter Jackson and his interpretation of Galadriel

[Edena_of_Neith]

I posted this to the White Council message board, which deals solely with the LOTR films being produced by Peter Jackson.

However, there are a great many Tolkien Scholars here.
Colonel Hardisson, for example, is an expert on Tolkien.

I thought that they, and all those who like Tolkien, and who also liked Peter Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien's work, might wish to discuss what I am about to post.

Tolkien was VERY philosophical - it is a very tragic misunderstanding, in my opinion, that he is considered a 'fantasy' author, when he delved so deeply into philosophy (and religion, obviously.)

Anyways ...
Here is the article, as I posted it:

- - -

This article is an expression of opinion only. Please take it as such. I hope it is an opinion worth this writing.

We who are familiar with Tolkien (and especially those few, myself not truly included, who understand how Tolkien thought) should realize how those who have never read Tolkien might take certain things.
One of those things is a line delivered by Galadriel to Frodo.

This line is:

And if you cannot find the way, nobody will.

Imagine how a person who has never read Tolkien might interpret this:

Here is Frodo.
He does not have the survival skills of Aragorn.
He does not have the combat skills of Aragorn.
He cannot slink and sneak around like Aragorn.
He cannot endure pain and hardship (or so it would appear, at least, in FOTR) like Aragorn.

And yet, Galadriel appears to be telling Frodo to go into Mordor alone.
Not only without Aragorn, but without Legolas, Gimli, Sam, Merry, or Pippin.

The typical person would guess that survival skills, combat skills, slinking and sneaking, and the ability to endure pain and hardship, are all traits one would need, to get into Mordor and take the Ring to the fire.

It's sorta like a highly educated and intelligent person telling a layman: If you cannot find a way to build this bridge across the river, nobody else will - when there are several construction engineers at hand to help said layman.

It's difficult to swallow (Look at what Denethor had to say, later on in ROTK.) that Frodo should go alone into Mordor.
It's just simply a difficult thing to swallow, that this hobbit - no matter how determined and brave - should attempt, alone, to penetrate the impregnable defenses of Mordor, cross the impassible and impossibly guarded terrain of Mordor, and thus make it to Mount Doom and throw the Ring into the fire.

Yet, Galadriel appears to be saying just that: Frodo, you must go alone to Mordor, and if you cannot find the way into Mordor and succeed on your own, then nobody else can do it in your place.

Common sense cries out that competent people should help Frodo, that some of the Fellowship should go along, that one simply doesn't send an inexperienced hobbit into the teeth of Sauron's war machine and his land of horrors.

(chuckles) However, common sense has nothing to do with this situation. That was Boromir's mistake - trying to look at the situation with common sense.
Galadriel had uncommon sense. Tolkien sense, for lack of a better word. And I do mean that as a compliment to Galadriel.

So did Peter Jackson, who bequeathed a great deal of Tolkien sense into his portrayal of Galadriel.

- - -

Galadriel was absolutely right.
If the Fellowship had gone with Frodo, there was no way they could help Frodo - they would be a hindrance only.

Galadriel's hard words to Frodo, would have come true in the bitterest of ways.

-

Imagine, for a second, that Gandalf had NOT fallen with the balrog, but had survived to go to Lothlorien.
Then imagine that Gandalf continued with the Fellowship down to Parth Galen.
What happens then?

Well, first of all, the whole scene with Boromir does not happen because Gandalf protects Frodo.
Thus, Merry and Pippin are not caught by the orcs, because they were not looking for Frodo.
Boromir is not killed, because he wasn't chasing after Merry and Pippin.

It is quite likely the whole party escapes to the east side of Anduin, and the entire Fellowship continues with Frodo to Mordor.
The whole Fellowship? Yes. Yes, the whole Fellowship, folks.
Merry and Pippin absolutely would have refused to part with Frodo, and Sam is a given.
And even in the book, Aragorn discussed himself, Legolas, or Gimli going - it is likely they would have stuck together, and unlikely they would have abandoned the hobbits.
Nor do I think Gandalf the Grey would have abandoned Frodo.
And if Gandalf would not abandon Frodo, and the hobbits would not abandon Frodo, why would Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli abandon them?
There might well have been a fight over the matter, but in the end - in my opinion - everyone would have gone with Frodo to Mordor, including Boromir for the purpose of snatching the One Ring during the trek.

Nor could Frodo have dissuaded them.
He could have tried to run off, but I do not think he could have evaded the entire Fellowship, with Gandalf leading them.
Nor would they have gone along with his pleas to go alone (although they might have listened.)

So ...

The entire Fellowship goes through Emyn Muil, and reaches the Dead Marshes. Now what?
Go through the Morannon? I don't think so.
Go through Morgul Vale? I do not think the minds of most of the Fellowship could have handled that.
Go through Cirith Ungol? Even if they got past Shelob, they would not have passed the Tower of Cirth Ungol. (Hundreds of orcs, plus archers on the wall, facing a road with no cover, a steep drop-off on the far side, and with horns to summon any number of allies, plus going up the Stairs to Cirth Ungol in the first place alerts Minas Morgul - which, because Aragorn did not look into the Palantir and thus Sauron has not started the war, is at FULL strength plus all the Nazgul.)

The Fellowship would have had to have gone the long way.
To the east, all the way to Rhun. Then south around the eastern end of the Ered Lithui. Then back into Mordor from the east. Up into the Plateau of Gorgoroth. Within 40 miles of Barad-Dur. With Sauron in full watchful mode, not war mode. And, of course, with the Ring.
Furthermore, the ENTIRE journey would have been through lands held by Sauron's allies. The lands north of the Ered Lithui are barren; there is little cover to be found, no forests, and the enemy is present in force along all the roads and mountain outposts.
So, in addition to it being a long road, it would have been a greviously difficult and slow road, long before the party approached the true terror - Gorgoroth ahead, and the Great Shadow (Barad-Dur) off to the front and right.

Boromir would have broken, of course, pretty quickly - he was breaking in the book, and although Gandalf's presence would have held it back a little longer, he would have broken on that trip.
Now, in THIS scenario there are no orcs to kill Boromir, and let us suppose the party does not kill Boromir, but subdues him instead. Frodo does not run off, but is protected.
What do they do now?

If they kill Boromir, that is an act of corruption in itself - although expedient, perhaps, it is a dark act, and it darkens the hearts of everyone in the Fellowship, and the Ring's corruptive effect against all of them is greatly empowered.
If they leave Boromir, tied up, it darkens them again, for Boromir dies, starving in the wilderness.
If they send Boromir back east, he goes - and then he is seized by the need for the Ring, and becomes Gollum Number 2, stalking the Fellowship.
If they send Boromir back under guard (losing a crucial party member in the process), there is some likelihood Boromir, when he is lost again to the Ring's draw, murders that person, and then Boromir is Gollum Number 2 AND the Fellowship is short 2 people.

In this grim scenario, it seems to me the best Gandalf, Frodo, and the others could do would be to simply send Boromir away, knowing he'd return as a stalker, and hope they could keep ahead of him and thus not have to kill him when he caught up with them.
As if they didn't have enough trouble already.

- - -

And then, as Gimli said in the film, it gets even better.

The next person in the party collapses - let's say it's Gimli.
Same choice as above. Only now, they will have TWO stalkers (Gollum Number Two and Gollum Number Three.)
Again, if they kill Gimli or leave him tied up, that act of murder strengthens the One Ring.

When Pippin collapses, it's worse.
Merry will insist on escorting him back personally to safety.
In all likelihood, the result will be a dead Merry and Pippin stalking the party as Gollum Number 3.

The terror of Sauron's presence (heck, his main fortress, Barad-Dur, will be right over there, in plain sight, for days) and the ever increasing power of the Ring, will force the remaining members of the party - likely, Sam, Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn, into a bitter choice.

Gandalf and Aragorn will be reeling from the lure of the Ring, knowing they cannot hold out much longer.
Sam, won't be reeling, but Gandalf and Aragorn won't know that.
Gandalf and Aragorn must make a hard choice:

Do they turn about, and let Frodo go on alone, while they confront all the Fellowship now stalking Frodo?
Do they force Sam to go with them?
Or do they stay, and hope that they reach Mount Doom before the One Ring destroys them as it destroyed the others, and then all hope is lost as they murder Frodo and take the Ring from him?

I think that, in the end, Gandalf and Aragorn make the choice to turn around (even as Aragorn made that choice at Parth Galen in the film) and let Frodo go it alone.
They may or may not take Sam - in all likelihood, Sam runs off, and returns to Frodo after they are gone.

So, in the end, Frodo is alone with Sam.
Just like in the book.
Gollum, slipping past Gandalf and Aragorn (who are trying to deal with the REST of the corrupted Fellowship) reaches Frodo at the Sammath Naur, and events take place just as they did in the book - hopefully.
Maybe not, since there was not time for Sam to learn mercy, but we can always hope - and if Gollum is killed by Sam, we can hope Sam has the sense to fight with a corrupted Frodo, to take the Ring from him by force and throw it into the Fire, or - in last despair - to throw Frodo into the Fire to save Middle Earth.

But that's not the point.
The point is, Frodo is alone in the end - except for Sam.
It doesn't matter whether the party breaks up at Parth Galen, whether they decide to send some of their Fellowship with Frodo, whether they decide to all go with Frodo, whether Gandalf lives or dies in Moria, or even if Elrond had sent additional people like Glorfindel.
No matter who goes, and no matter which way they take, and no matter how they take the road chosen, it always ends with Frodo and Sam.
Always.
It does not seem to me that there is a way - not even theoretically - that it could end any other way, except for Frodo and Sam to be alone when Mount Doom is reached.

- - -

Thus, Galadriel's statement is vindicated - not that it needed vindication.

And Galadriel herself spelled all of this out - everything written above - in a few simple, brutal, statements to Frodo, in the film:

He will try to take the Ring.
You know of whom I speak.
One by one, it will destroy them all.

To be a Ringbearer, Frodo, is to be alone.
And if you do not find a way, no one will.

Frodo understood. He understood everything ... he understood all too well, really.
It is a pity that the others in the party, especially in the book, did not understand.
(Sam is an exception in that he did understand Frodo's motives, at least partially, and in that his loyalty to Frodo was stronger than the One Ring's corruptive effect.)

Had I been Frodo, I would have been terrified too.

However, Galadriel was not being cruel.
Telling someone the truth is not cruel - it is in lies and deceit that the cruelty lies.
Galadriel was doing her best to help Frodo. All she could do, she did.
If that came off as harsh, that is because the reality was harsh.

- - -

Galadriel actually made a point of saying to Frodo: I am weaker than you are, Frodo.
She effectively said to him: You can withstand the Ring's corruption, and I cannot. You, a hobbit of the Shire, are stronger than I, Galadriel of the Noldor.

And her Mirror showed us the purity of Frodo's quest.
The Mirror of Galadriel shows the grim fate the Shire faces if Frodo fails.
And it shows us that Frodo is pure in his motivation - his motivation is not for power, but for preservation of his land, his friends, and his people - a determination the Mirror of Galadriel strengthens, as Galadriel wanted.

Whereas if Galadriel had taken the Ring, it would have been for the purposes of Power, a purpose that would quickly have corrupted and destroyed Galadriel, or anyone else picking up the Ring for that purpose.
Another point Galadriel impressed on Frodo in a most forceful way, manifesting in her full power to frighten him and educate him concerning the ways of the One Ring.

- - -

These are truly the acts and words of a 10,000 year old elf.
This is what one would expect of one of the Wise, one of the survivors of the First, Second, and Third Ages.
This is what one would expect of Galadriel.

Galadriel, in the film, showed herself to be much wiser than Gandalf the Grey or Elrond.

Galadriel's words were actually a rebuke to them both (although Gandalf was dead, and could not hear them, of course.)

It was Elrond who formed the Fellowship.
Galadriel debunked the idea of the Fellowship as untenable.

Gandalf said he would stand by Frodo.
I admit that this is a question mark, but could Gandalf have held out to the end, to the Cracks of Doom - and what about the others pursuing Frodo that Gandalf needed to face down?
Galadriel, in effect, stated that Gandalf was foolish in his declaration, and could not carry through with it.

I believe that it is possible that Galadriel, at least in the film, would have rebuked Gandalf - had he lived to reach Lothlorien - and asked him to rethink the entire idea of the Fellowship of the Ring, and his own motivations.
Certainly, Gandalf the WHITE might have listened to Galadriel - Gandalf the WHITE made no attempt to find Frodo or help him, and maybe he refused to help Frodo because he knew he COULDN'T help Frodo.

Maybe, Gandalf the White understood all of the above, whereas Gandalf the Grey did not understand.

I'm certain Galadriel would have rebuked Elrond.

- - -

Anyways ...

What I have taken an entire long, and very rambling, article, to discuss, Peter Jackson had Galadriel summarize in a few brief sentences, in images in the Mirror of Galadriel, and in Galadriel's attitude (body language) towards Frodo.

I think Galadriel foresaw that Frodo would be corrupted in the end by the One Ring.
And I think that Galadriel thought that Sam, alone out of the entire Fellowship, would be there at that bitter end, to ensure the Ring - one way or another - would go into the Fire.

What Galadriel thought of Gollum, and his part in this, I do not know, but she knew all about him, she knew he was in her land, and she knew Gollum was stalking Frodo.
I do not know, however, what part she thought he might play.

- - -

The idea that the layman has to build the bridge (according to the wise person), and the engineers cannot be involved - in other words, Frodo has to take the Ring alone into Mordor, and the others cannot go (except Sam), is something that would not have gone over well with the general public who have never read Tolkien, but Peter Jackson compensated for that as well.

Galadriel laid it all out in blunt, straightforward terms. (If you insist on staying with the Fellowship, they will be destroyed by the Ring.)
Then, Peter Jackson SHOWED us the truth of Galadriel's words.

Boromir fell to the Ring.
Then Aragorn was tempted - he withstood it, that time.
Aragorn CLEARLY understood that he might not withstand the lure again, and he abandoned his promise to Frodo, and said his good-byes to Frodo then and there.
Later, he would refuse Legolas and Gimli when they sought to follow Frodo on his quest - Aragorn had come to realize the truth of Galadriel's words, even if he had never heard them uttered.

Thus, to the person who has never read Tolkien, the idea that the layman must build the bridge, and the engineers cannot be involved - that Frodo must go alone into Mordor, and nobody can accompany him (with the exception of Sam), is made into something that makes perfect sense.

Tolkien sense made into common sense, as it were.

But Gandalf did not do it. He was not wise enough.
Elrond did not do it. He did not perceive the truth.
Galadriel saw the truth, and gave that truth to Frodo, and because she did, Aragorn and all the others survived whereas otherwise they would not have survived.
Because Galadriel gave Frodo the truth, Middle Earth survived whereas otherwise it might well not have (since Gollum's story would have been altered.)

All of this, in Galadriel's body language, some brief images in the Mirror of Galadriel, and a couple of sentences out of Galadriel's mouth.

Peter Jackson's interpretation of Galadriel.

Genius.

- - -

What do you think?

Was Peter Jackson's interpretation of Galadriel as true and inspired as I am claiming it was?
If not, where did Peter Jackson go wrong?
What should Peter Jackson have done, instead?

What do you think Galadriel thought, concerning the Fellowship?
Did you think she thought they had a chance, if Frodo did not leave them?
Do you think she thought that only Frodo (and maybe Sam) could make it to the Fire?

Do you think the Fellowship would have failed if Galadriel had not done what she did?
Do you think Galadriel would have rebuked Elrond, and even Gandalf, had they come to Lothlorien?
Do you think Galadriel would have attempted to change Gandalf's mind, and break up the Fellowship, if he had arrived there alive, as Gandalf the Grey?

Do you think there is something Galadriel did not do, that she should have done?

The mission to destroy the One Ring was NOT a simple adventure quest.
At least, not in my opinion.
In my opinion, it was philosophy, some crucial tenets of religion, Stature, and the interpersonal relationships between the members of the Fellowship - that made the difference between success and failure.
Not swords, spells, magical items, levels, the ability to sneak around, or survival skills.

Galadriel seemed to see all this in a way beyond the comprehension of Gandalf the Grey or Elrond, and they were accounted Wise.
And Peter Jackson, seemed to have grasped this fully, and brought Galadriel's comprehension to the screen in a very effective way, especially given the short amount of time he had to work with her.

Again, what do you think?

 

[Umbran]

Tolkien was VERY philosophical - it is a very tragic misunderstanding, in my opinion, that he is considered a 'fantasy' author, when he delved so deeply into philosophy (and religion, obviously.)

No. The tragic thing isn't that he's considered a fantasy author. The tragic thing is that people so misunderstand what a fantasy author can be.

I see a couple of major flaws of logic here. I'll chop a lot for brevity and focus...

What happens then?
...
Well, first of all, the whole scene with Boromir does not happen because Gandalf protects Frodo.
...
Boromir is not killed, because he wasn't chasing after Merry and Pippin.
...
Nor do I think Gandalf the Grey would have abandoned Frodo.
...
There might well have been a fight over the matter, but in the end - in my opinion - everyone would have gone with Frodo to Mordor, including Boromir for the purpose of snatching the One Ring during the trek.

First - there's a problem with Boromir. He's under the spell of the One Ring. He wants it desperately. Under no circumstances will he allow it to go into Mordor. Boromir is not Gollum, used to skulking behind. He is a son of Denethor, a bold man of action. Even with Gandalf alive, he will act before the Ring can fall into the hands of Sauron's servants - before it crosses the river.

If Gandalf or anyone else has to defend Frodo from Boromir, Boromir probably dies. If not, he certainly doesn't go with the rest of the Fellowship. Either way, such a betrayal will have some effect on the Fellowship. Exactly what would be hard to predict.

Second, I think you vastly underestimate Gandalf. Tolkien has a name for people like him - "The Wise" - for a very good reason. You praise Galadriel for her wisdom, but you don't attribute that same wisdom to the one who chose Frodo for the task in the first place?

Gandalf wouldn't "abandon" Frodo, but neither would he follow him into Mordor. He knows darned well that he can't - while a hobbit might pass into Mordor unseen, Gandalf cannot. He's not a human, he's a minor angel, and Sauron will notice him if and when he gets too close.

So, IMHO, your suggested series of events falls apart roughly where the original Fellowship falls apart. Boromir should be quietly biding his time, and Gandalf shouldn't be an idiot. *shrug*.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

What I am giving an opinion of, and what I think Galadriel saw, Umbran, is this:

Yes, Boromir was bound and determined to have that Ring, just as you have said.
So, yes, Boromir tries to take the Ring - as foretold by Galadriel - whether Gandalf the Grey is with them (having theoretically survived Moria) or whether he is not.

However, there is a fundamental problem with dealing with Boromir, and it's tied up with Tolkien's philosophy.

If the party (with Gandalf or without Gandalf, it does not matter) KILLS Boromir - even because he is charging straight at Frodo with his sword out - it darkens the hearts and minds of everyone in the Fellowship.
Whether it's an act of combat, an act of self-defense, or an act of murder, Boromir is dead, and his blood - like it or not - is on the hands of the Fellowship.
The justifications, rationalizations, and the Whys of the matter, do not matter here.
The One Ring's lure is strengthened over those who are darkened of heart and mind.
It was a fundamental bit of Tolkien philosophy that this was so.

Witness Denethor. A man bowed by his responsibility, in great pain due to the loss of his son - in other words darkened in heart and mind, and look at his actions:
He wished his own son, Faramir, dead, to his face.
He declared Boromir would have brought him the Ring, and given it to him - which was patently absurd, and Denethor was renown for his wisdom, so obviously wisdom had failed here.
He declared himself strong enough to wield the Ring, or at least to TRY to wield it, and that was patently absurd also.

So, the death of Boromir, whether justified or not, weakens Frodo.
Frodo, cannot afford to be weakened by the knowledge his own Fellowship killed Boromir.
That weakening, might make the difference between the One Ring conquering Frodo prior to his arrival at Mount Doom, and Frodo making it to Mount Doom unconquered.

And the problem does not end there.

If the Fellowship drives Boromir off, we have Gollum Number Two on Frodo's tail.
And THIS Gollum, is bigger, stronger, and much better in combat, than Frodo or Sam.
Frodo and Sam, who were in over their heads before, now must contend with Boromir as well.

There is no question that Boromir would chase them, in my opinion.
Boromir, after returning to lucidity briefly, would fall to the corruption again, and the stalking would begin.

So, what if the Fellowship sees they cannot kill Boromir, and they cannot drive him off? What to do?

Bring him alone, on a leash?
That is, indeed, what Frodo choose to do (I stress FRODO chose this wise course of action ... and not Samwise Gamgee)
However, with Boromir it's a different kettle of fish.

Boromir cannot be subdued by promises made in sight of the Precious.
Boromir, probably cannot be subdued, at all.
And so, they must constantly watch him, day and night - at least two of the Fellowship must go with Boromir, so that they can keep alternating watches.

That's really great! NOT. Who is to go with Frodo, then?
They wanted to go with Frodo. Who goes, with two of the Fellowship (and not Merry and Pippin!!) having to stay behind to guard Boromir?

Of course, there is a good chance Boromir escapes, and there is some chance he kills one or both of his captors in the process.

- - -

Gimli said: Then it gets even better!
So it is, in the case here.

Let us assume Gimli and Legolas decide to stay behind with Boromir, while Gandalf and all the rest of the Fellowship go with Frodo (at least to the borders of Mordor, states Gandalf.)

Now, the Ring exerts it's corrupting influence, just as Galadriel predicted.
A SECOND member of the Fellowship crumbles and tries to take the Ring.

The remaining Fellowship must once more decide what to do.
Kill this second member, which darkens them, and strengthens the One Ring ...
Leave the person to die in the waste, a dark act that strengthens the One Ring ...
Take the person along on a leash, which imperils them all.
Send the person back under guard, which takes out another of the Fellowship to do so ...
Send the person back alone, in which case we have Gollum Number 3.

This repetitive pattern continues until only Frodo and Sam, and maybe Gandalf and Aragorn, are left.

Gandalf cannot, perhaps, enter Mordor at all without being spotted.
If Aragorn continues, the Ring may claim him.

Anyway you cut it, it comes up Frodo and Sam, alone in Mordor, alone at Mount Doom.
Just as Galadriel, in effect, said it would be.

How is the logic above wrong?

- - -

The point of the logic above was to show that Galadriel's statements were true:

To be a Ringbearer, Frodo, is to be alone.
And if you cannot find the way, no one will.

The equivalent (to the person who has never read Tolkien) of a genius telling a bright but uneducated person that he must build a mighty bridge alone, and the team of construction engineers that came to help him, he must send away.

Yet, this is the truth - only the bright, uneducated man CAN hope to build the bridge, and if the construction engineers stay to help, the bridge doesn't get built.
Illogical, perhaps, in the Real World, but quite logical in Middle Earth.

The genius of Peter Jackson is that he brought the logic of Middle Earth - Tolkien's logic - to the viewer in such a way that everyone (Tolkien reader or not) could see that logic.
And he did it, with Galadriel's body language, with some images in the Mirror, and with a few choice words from Galadriel herself.

Now, if my chain of logic above (the Fellowship falling apart) is wrong, then I must re-examine the entire issue.

However, just how, Umbran, is my chain of logic wrong?

In what way can ANY member of the Fellowship, other than Frodo or Sam, make it - even theoretically! - to Mount Doom?

 

[Piratecat]

On a slightly different note, Galadriel's temptation was my least favorite scene in the entire movie; so much potential wasted, such a disappointment. The actress could - IMO, should - have been able to convey the import without resorting to cheesy special effewcts and voice modulation. It was the one place where I thought inappropriate special effects were used, and it lessened the impact accordingly.

But in my heart, I'll always have that scene from the BBC's radio play. Lord, is it wonderful there.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I respect Piratecat's opinion.

However, I totally disagree with that opinion.

I suppose my long article, above gives that away.

I was GREATLY impressed by that whole scene, and all of the effects in it - but none more than the acting skills, and trained physical talent, of Cate Blanchett.

However, each to their own!
I know many disapproved of the portrayal of Galadriel, not just Piratecat.
I just happen to be one of those who greatly approved ...

 

[Umbran]

The actress could - IMO, should - have been able to convey the import without resorting to cheesy special effewcts and voice modulation.

I'm not sure I agree. From that scene:

"She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone, and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo!she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad."

This sort of thing is common for Tolkien. His characters occasionally take on a seeming greater than that of a normal mortal. The state is generally short lived, but marked. A viewer should not be able to miss it.

So, you think a normal mortal actress should be able to handle this transformation without aid? I can't name an actress who can even manage being "terrible and worshipful", much less be able to project a change to and from that state with only her own acting ability. Sorry, P-cat, but until we find an actual Noldor elf to play the part, I think our mere human actresses will need some enhancement.

In a radio play they can manage it, because your own mind provides the visual imagry. But on screen, the visual image must be produced by the filmmakers.

 

[tleilaxu]

If Gandalf survives this is how I see it going:

From Aragorn we know that Gandalf DID plan on going with Frodo the whole way. Aragorn was also intending to go to Minas Tirith with Boromir from the beginning. The only reason he doesn't is because gandalf's burden fell to him. SO... I see the group splitting up like this:

Gandalf goes to Mordor with Frodo and Sam (perhaps also Legolas and Gimli)

Aragorn and Boromir go to Minas Tirith. Gandalf forces Merry and Pippin to go with them. We also know that Gimli would prefer to go to Minas Tirith but doesn't want to abandon Frodo. Conceivably, if Gandalf were there then Gimli and Legolas would feel comfortable enough to go with Aragorn. But perhaps Legolas would go into Mordor as well.

Aragorn brings the sword that was broken to Minas Tirith with Boromir, who supports him as the answer to the prophecy (isildur's bane shall waken, yada yada) yet Denethor doesn't want to yield. Where the situation goes from here who knows?

 

[Umbran]

From Aragorn we know that Gandalf DID plan on going with Frodo the whole way.

I don't recall the movie well enough to be sure, but I expect this is incorrect. In the book, Aragorn didn't know what Gandalf's plan was - from the LotR, Book II, Chapter 8, Farewell to Lorien:

"We have not decided out course," said Aragorn. "Beyond Lothlorien I do not know what Gandalf indended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose."

 

[Piratecat]

So, you think a normal mortal actress should be able to handle this transformation without aid? I can't name an actress who can even manage being "terrible and worshipful", much less be able to project a change to and from that state with only her own acting ability. Sorry, P-cat, but until we find an actual Noldor elf to play the part, I think our mere human actresses will need some enhancement.

Nope! I'm no luddite, opposed to special effects on general principle. I just disagree with the particular special effects they chose to use.

Compare the scene, for instance, with the scene where Gandalf "manifests" (to use the cheesy term from the 2e Complete Book of Elf Wanking, as we affectionately call it.) You know the one; in FotR, when Bilbo is having ring-driven second thoughts. I thought Jackson represented the same basic concept - hidden power revealed - quite nicely when Gandalf revealed himself to scare Bilbo. Then I contrast that with the in-your-face way that Galadriel's temptation was handled, and I say "feh." Cate Blanchett erupts into colored flame and her voice distorts into something terrible. This is not, in fact, how I picture "beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful."

But hey, it worked for other people! It just didn't - really didn't - work for me. I can live with that.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

However, there are a great many Tolkien Scholars here.
Colonel Hardisson, for example, is an expert on Tolkien.

Thanks, but I'm really not. I'm not trying to be humble, either; there are plenty of people here more conversant with the books. Such as you, Edena.