D&D 5E A more dynamic skill system?

dave2008 · Nov 25, 2019

I have thought about implementing a skill system based on background and class: basically if it makes sense for your background and/or class to be able to do something (if it is not obvious, they player must explain the reasoning) then you can add your proficiency bonus to the roll for a relevant ability check.

Basically, you have the skills you should have.

Fanaelialae · Nov 25, 2019

dave2008 said:
I have thought about implementing a skill system based on background and class: basically if it makes sense for your background and/or class to be able to do something (if it is not obvious, they player must explain the reasoning) then you can add your proficiency bonus to the roll for a relevant ability check.

Basically, you have the skills you should have.

I'm tentatively doing something along these lines in my latest campaign.

We almost always forget to use background features in my campaigns, so I replaced them with a feature that all backgrounds get. If you can justify how your background can help you with an ability check, you get a +1 for a reasonable argument, or +2 if the correlation is a strong one. I also explicitly called out that players can do this after they roll (so that if they're hunting for that extra +1 they need to pass the check, they'll hopefully think of this rule and them be motivated to use it again in the future).

Ilbranteloth · Nov 25, 2019

dave2008 said:
Your probably aware, but advantage doesn't work out to a flat +5, the effective bonus is highly dependent on the difficulty of the task compared to your change of success.

Yes, but it's +/- 5 for passive scores.

Ilbranteloth · Nov 25, 2019

Fanaelialae said:
I think I see why they didn't go with that approach. It makes advantage/disadvantage significantly less pertinent.

For example, the rogue with thieves tools expertise has no reason to seek a clever way to gain advantage, because they already automatically get it.

Similarly, the human without training in Perception has no reason to light a torch in dim light, because he's going to have disadvantage either way.

We have also experimented with stacking advantage/disadvantage. Interestingly enough, while it seems like rolling 3 dice would significantly increase/reduce your chances, mathematically that's not the case. I don't have the numbers here, but it's kind of a perfect mechanic, because it feels awesome to the player, but doesn't alter the average nearly as much as you think.

It's also very reasonable to add a modifier in addition to advantage/disadvantage. Advantage/disadvantage is the simple and quickest way to do it, but I also regularly assign numerical modifiers as well. Sometimes a flat bonus/penalty, other times by rolling a separate die, because we tend to prefer rules that add a modifier rather than a flat and predictable result.

One thing we've toyed with is advantage/disadvantage is +/- a bonus die. For example, if you have a good advantage (such as when you'd normally have advantage in 5e), then you'd roll a d20 + d4. But if the circumstances were more significant, then it could be a d20 + d6 instead. The main reason I like this approach is that it's still variable, but it also allows more levels of advantage/disadvantage without adding a significant amount of complexity such as adding/subtracting modifiers a la 3/3.5e. The DM assesses, by considering the entire situation, whether advantage/disadvantage applies, then by how much.

We've also considered (and are very close to doing so), granting everybody proficiency in Perception and/or removing it as a skill.

The reality is, this sort of thing matters little in our campaign as we really don't focus on the mechanics much. So the PC with no proficiency in Perception would light a torch because it makes sense for numerous reasons. Where seeking a clever way to gain advantage feels more "gamey" than roleplaying to me.

Ilbranteloth · Nov 25, 2019

Part II of our skill system...

While overall the reduction in the number of skills is a good thing, we also wanted to be able to include more specific skills, and expertise in our campaign. Our method of doing this was to create Fields of Expertise.

A Field of Expertise is a subskill of the main skills. You have to have proficiency in a main skill before you can gain expertise in a given field. You cannot gain expertise in a skill, only a field of expertise.

Although we'll probably continue tweaking, this is the current list;

Acrobatics

Balance
Climber
Dancing
Riding
Tumbler

Animal Handling

Animal Training
Falconry
Riding
Wagonmaster

Arcana

Alchemy
Astrology
Fortune Telling
History, Ancient
History, Local
History, Magic Items
History, Racial

Athletics

Athlete
Craftsman
Dancing
Riding
Swimming

Deception

Disguise
Fortune Telling
Oratory
Swindler

History

Etiquette
Heraldry
History, Ancient
History, Local
History, Magic Items
History, Racial
Navigation

Insight

Artist
Animal Training
Appraising
Diplomacy
Ear for Deceit
Eavesdropping
Etiquette
Fortune Teller
Linguist
Navigation
Rumormonger
Tracking

Intimidation

Brute
Oratory

Investigation

Eye for Detail
Heraldry
History, Ancient
History, Local
History, Magic Items
History, Racial
Linguist
Rumormonger
Tracking

Language

Linguist
Literate

Medicine

Herbalism
Surgery

Nature

Herbalism
History, Ancient
History, Local

Perception

Ear for Deceit
Eye for Detail
Eavesdropping
Know Your Enemy

Performance

Acting
Artist
Dancing
Disguise
Hide in Plain Sight
Juggling
Musical Instrument
Oratory
Poetry
Singing

Persuasion

Diplomacy
Fortune Telling
Oratory

Religion

Astrology
Fortune Telling
History, Ancient
History, Local
History, Magic Items
History, Racial
Oratory
Singing

Sleight of Hand

Craftsman
Juggling
Locksmithing
Musical Instrument
Rope Use
Surgery
Tinker

Stealth

Camouflage
Hide in Plain Sight

Survival

Animal Lore
Camouflage
Navigation
Survival, Terrain
Tracking

We don't have any problem adding things if appropriate, and you'll note that a lot of the fields can be gained from multiple skills. We grant one skill for any ability score that you have a bonus in, plus one field of expertise for each point of bonus. So if you have a +2 bonus for Strength, you can take Athletics, with Athlete and Riding, for example.

You have advantage on checks in your field of expertise, and it's a normal proficiency check for your skill.

dave2008 · Nov 25, 2019

Ilbranteloth said:
Part II of our skill system...

While overall the reduction in the number of skills is a good thing, we also wanted to be able to include more specific skills, and expertise in our campaign. Our method of doing this was to create Fields of Expertise.

A Field of Expertise is a subskill of the main skills. You have to have proficiency in a main skill before you can gain expertise in a given field. You cannot gain expertise in a skill, only a field of expertise.

Although we'll probably continue tweaking, this is the current list;

Acrobatics

Balance

Climber

Dancing

Riding

Tumbler

Animal Handling

Animal Training

Falconry

Riding

Wagonmaster

Arcana

Alchemy

Astrology

Fortune Telling

History, Ancient

History, Local

History, Magic Items

History, Racial

Athletics

Athlete

Craftsman

Dancing

Riding

Swimming

Deception

Disguise

Fortune Telling

Oratory

Swindler

History

Etiquette

Heraldry

History, Ancient

History, Local

History, Magic Items

History, Racial

Navigation

Insight

Artist

Animal Training

Appraising

Diplomacy

Ear for Deceit

Eavesdropping

Etiquette

Fortune Teller

Linguist

Navigation

Rumormonger

Tracking

Intimidation

Brute

Oratory

Investigation

Eye for Detail

Heraldry

History, Ancient

History, Local

History, Magic Items

History, Racial

Linguist

Rumormonger

Tracking

Language

Linguist

Literate

Medicine

Herbalism

Surgery

Nature

Herbalism

History, Ancient

History, Local

Perception

Ear for Deceit

Eye for Detail

Eavesdropping

Know Your Enemy

Performance

Acting

Artist

Dancing

Disguise

Hide in Plain Sight

Juggling

Musical Instrument

Oratory

Poetry

Singing

Persuasion

Diplomacy

Fortune Telling

Oratory

Religion

Astrology

Fortune Telling

History, Ancient

History, Local

History, Magic Items

History, Racial

Oratory

Singing

Sleight of Hand

Craftsman

Juggling

Locksmithing

Musical Instrument

Rope Use

Surgery

Tinker

Stealth

Camouflage

Hide in Plain Sight

Survival

Animal Lore

Camouflage

Navigation

Survival, Terrain

Tracking

We don't have any problem adding things if appropriate, and you'll note that a lot of the fields can be gained from multiple skills. We grant one skill for any ability score that you have a bonus in, plus one field of expertise for each point of bonus. So if you have a +2 bonus for Strength, you can take Athletics, with Athlete and Riding, for example.

You have advantage on checks in your field of expertise, and it's a normal proficiency check for your skill.

In general I really like this approach, though I might disagree with some of the areas of expertise. It is not very 5e in simplicity, but adds some more detail and choices for those who want them.

Ilbranteloth · Nov 26, 2019

dave2008 said:
In general I really like this approach, though I might disagree with some of the areas of expertise. It is not very 5e in simplicity, but adds some more detail and choices for those who want them.

Yeah, the fields we've come up with is what my players have wanted. I've tried to keep it as simple as possible and the reality is, it's pretty clear as to when you have expertise (gain advantage) on the check due to the narrow field.

Tony Vargas · Nov 26, 2019

Jd Smith1 said:
The 5s skill system covered the basics, but it is a touch simplistic for investigative scenarios, especially since by 5th or 6th level a party will have virtually every skill buffed.

With 5e BA does that even matter that you have a skill 'buffed' (good stat & proficiency?) Or are you talking Expertise or the equivalent?

My next campaign will be in the Degenesis (no magic), and I was wondering how/if the skill system could be made a bit more refined.

"no magic?"

5e prettymuch doesn't work without magic - you're down to 5 sub-classes in the PH, and basic party functions can't be covered. You'd need more than just more refined skills to get it working.

For Degenesis, if you don't like it's native system, maybe try PbtA or Savage Worlds or something? If you do want to go D&D-ish, consider picking up an older edition of Gamma World. The 4th (not the one based on 4e, that's the 7th) is generally well-regarded.

dave2008 · Nov 26, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
5e prettymuch doesn't work without magic - you're down to 5 sub-classes in the PH, and basic party functions can't be covered. You'd need more than just more refined skills to get it working.

Sure it does, I am sure you are familiar with AiME. In one of my current groups we have very little magic: no cleric, half caster max (we have on player with a few levels of wizard and one with some druid). Not no magic, but not a lot.

Jd Smith1 · Nov 26, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
"no magic?"

5e prettymuch doesn't work without magic - you're down to 5 sub-classes in the PH, and basic party functions can't be covered. You'd need more than just more refined skills to get it working.

Sure, it will. I bought a supplement which provides six classes and a total of 18 archtypes, all geared towards a post-apoc setting. The enemy doesn't have magic, so the power level evens out. I use the optional healing rule and added stimpacks (with the serial numbers filed off), took some firearm concepts fro Aces & Eights, and Bob's your Uncle.

Tony Vargas said:
For Degenesis, if you don't like it's native system, maybe try PbtA or Savage Worlds or something? If you do want to go D&D-ish, consider picking up an older edition of Gamma World. The 4th (not the one based on 4e, that's the 7th) is generally well-regarded.

Sorry, I can't use either system. I have a condition which prevents me from using systems that stink.

Actually, my players like 5e and don't want to buy new books for a while.