A new formula for "Epic" gaming

[Psion]

Another thread here complains that Epic level games are too tedious. As it is the same as high level games plus lack of PCGen support (currently), I can see that.

However, to me the essential flaw in the ELH was not the rules so much as the feel. It seems to me that Epic Level Play is more like playing hell level Diablo II than it is like playing the Lord of the Rings or the Belgariad.

To me, epic feel is less about level and more about the grandiosity of the play. AFAIAC, the power levels to be had from 11th-20th level are more than sufficient to this.

It occurs to me that you could make a great campaign that is more than epic if you used 5 books that seem to "get" epic better than the ELH does. Not top shelf books, either, AFIAC... both have some problems. But I think they have epic down:

- The "Path" books by FFG, and,
- Crypts & Tombs by Fast Forward

Thoughts?

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Starting off at Epic Levels, with Epic level money is a bad idea in most cases. You end up with all the problems of playing at lower levels (twinked characters, unfamiliarity with the rules, lack of understanding of how to work as a team, difficulty with new plots, no long time villains) only magnified a hundred fold.

Although I'd love to play in an Epic campaign, I think the only way to do is to start at, say, 15th level and work your way into it, or better still from lower levels.

It's much more difficult to care about the BBEG when you've arrived at 25th level...if you've been fighting him or his minions since 10th he has a lot more impact.

See Sepulchrave's and Piratecat's SH for examples of taking a regular campaign into Epic. No problems there since the PC's are very familiar with their characters and the DM has had control over their equipment. Plus, of course, excellent players.

 

[Psion]

Starting off at Epic Levels, with Epic level money is a bad idea in most cases.

I think you have missed the point of this thread. Epic is, IMO, not a level. This thread is not about mechanical problems of playing epic levels, but the lack of epic feel in epic levels.

 

[WizarDru]

See Sepulchrave's and Piratecat's SH for examples of taking a regular campaign into Epic. No problems there since the PC's are very familiar with their characters and the DM has had control over their equipment. Plus, of course, excellent players.

Not to shamelessly plug my group's story hour, but we're doing the same thing. The party has worked it's way up from 1st level, and are about to go Epic. They've battled a Winterwight and lived to tell the tale, and just defeated (at cost) a Paragon Half-Fire Elemental Beholder. Their goal? To liberate their former-patron, an Ancient Gold Wyrm being held in the demiplane known as Durance Vile, a stronghold of the most powerful of the Red dragons, including their speaker, The Infernus, and his predecessor....Ashardalon.

Epic is different, but it can be lots of fun. However, I think that FFG's path books certainly take a stab in the right direction. My biggest problem with the ELH is that Epic is...well, not exactly Epic. Epic Spellcasting, for example, looks neat on paper, but will never be really used, in practice. All the spellcasters I know want higher slots, seeing as some of them didn't see the need to max out spellcraft and other skills, so getting a DC90 Spellcraft check seems just silly. Note that WotC's own example features a 62-nd level cleric. I don't think so.

 

[hong]

Epic is a state of mind.

 

[Psion]

Epic is different, but it can be lots of fun. However, I think that FFG's path books certainly take a stab in the right direction. My biggest problem with the ELH is that Epic is...well, not exactly Epic. Epic Spellcasting, for example, looks neat on paper, but will never be really used, in practice.

Well, I had a player in my barely epic game (he had a 21st level char) with the feat (it was sort of a campaign requirement) and he tried to engineer some hideous spells. Once I smacked him down with some rulings on the order that you apply modifiers (no, making things permanent does not increase the effect of drawbacks!), I think that it took its proper place.

Now I am getting off topic...

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Well being as I feel that the Epic feel is equally as viable at, say, 12th level plus (when you start to get spells like wind walk, teleport etc), I think carrying onto to level 20+ shouldn't make any difference to the feel of the game.

After all, why is having more powerful PC's and more powerful enemies less Epic in feel? It's a very intangible, subjective thing.

 

[Piratecat]

I think that in order to ahve this conversation, you need to differentiate between epic feel and "we've passed 20th lvl." Lord knows that you can pass 20th lvl without the campaign feeling epic - the ELH showed that, unfortunately - and I'm convinced that you can have a lower level campaign that deals with epic plots and issues.

The question comes when you combine the two. What's the best way to make an epic-themed campaign that also has incredibly high-lvl characters in it? I struggle with that on a regular basis, and I'm just kind of groping my way towards whatever feels right.

 

[Marius Delphus]

Agreed. "Epic feel" has little to do with what's on the character sheet, and has more to do with what the characters are doing. What tasks are they undertaking and *why*?

Are they beating 20th level dungeons, or are they playing the "Game of Thrones" (to borrow a title)? Are they hunting *another* great wyrm dragon, or are they on the trail of the Crystal of Infinite Magic because their home Empire is in turmoil following an attempted coup by the Council of the Wise? Are they jauntily rousting out the latest Evil lich lord or are they desperately trying to discover its fatal weakness in time to prevent it from performing the Ritual of the Undead Scourge?

Note that you don't *need* Lots of Proper Nouns to have "epic feel," it's just a convenient shorthand.

Two more cents in the pot.

 

[seasong]

The most epic (traditional sense) campaign I've ever had was a gritty, low-tech, low-magic little campaign called AO. The PCs went from farm kids conscripted into the military to fight for a city they'd never seen... to tearing down the existing aristrocracy and coming into power themselves. Somewhere in the middle they went on journeys to other lands, educated themselves (practically by force of will), drove back a barbarian march in their middle age, married, begat, and gave serious consideration to bringing the moral values of their home village to as much of the continent as they could.

The spell caster never did anything more impressive than what would be (in D&D) 2nd level spells. The warrior-type never did whirlwind attacks or great cleaves or eight attacks per round. The farmkid-turned-general never Inspired Fanaticism.

The Epic Level Handbook should really have been called The Very High Level Handbook & Interplanar Adventure Guide. But it's called what it's called .