a new idea

[The Burned Man]

the Kessel was said to be Human-dominated according to the texts...

...why not have hobgoblins working for fiends? maybe in the realms of the devils in the West?

 

[Imperialus]

Human dominated sure, but it would be kinda boring if the Kessel was a fantasy equivilant of NBC.

 

[LRonKnieval]

I like the idea of having the Hobgoblins being a pure-bred racist/militaristic society. I also like the idea of them being refugees of some sort.
After finally grasping the concept of how small the kessel is in comparisson to the rest of the world, I believe it is very possible for a society of militaristic Hobgoblins to have existed far to the west of Mt Barakus that (without the protection of the serewail) had to struggle against the fiends by all means possible just to survive. In breeding was necessary for survival. If this were the case, it just might be that recently they have gotten tired of fending off the constant onslaught fiends. Their numbers have dwindled and they now realize they are in danger of becoming wiped-out in the next few generations so they have begun a great migration into the Kessel. Many of them could also have been warped by the serewail ( offering a template or prestige class that has a new place in their culture)or they might be more resistant to it like the mantu (which might help explain the origins of either race).

 

[The Burned Man]

http://www.d20reviews.com/Daemonforge/standardrace.htm

"Once the varied races and nations of the world lived apart from each other, each race and culture retaining its uniqueness, due to cultural, political and geographical reasons. There were varied human nations and many tongues and customs existed, and though the other races were far more homogenous even the exhibited differences. All this changed when the heavens and hells turned the world into a battlefield and the mortal masses were forced to take refuge in distant lands behind the Fingers Of Darkness.

Humans were once found in every corner of the world and they had always held dominion over the Kessel-region, which lay to the east of the Fingers Of Darkness. The human inhabitants of this region were first reluctant to allow other humans, belonging to foreign nations and alien cultures, to enter their land and even less so if the refugees were not of human stock. Eventually a great human lord saw the folly in this as the destruction of the other races would surely only hasten the fall of the human nations. By his design and will the other races were allowed to take refuge in the Kessel, and made to work together as one to fend of the fiendish threat.

Behind the massive natural barrier of the Fingers Of Darkness, covered as it is by the alien mist, they began to build a new civilisation. As centuries past by cultural taboos began to break down, as there were no great barriers between the mortals, no mountain or river, no strife or prejudice endured the fiendish siege. Slowly they began to see themselves, not as men, dwarfs, elves or whatever else they had once chosen to call themselves, but as people. One people. More and more half-breeds began to appear as people married across racial divides and soon the term half-breed became obsolete as the so called pure-blood became rarer than those of a diverse heritage. Those pure-bloods that remain tend to belong to long-lived races, such as the elves, who still retain a separate culture among the seas of the endless ocean. Truly most people are mostly still human, but with the blood of many diverse races flowing in their veins, and while quite many claim to be of pure blood such claims bear little meaning to common folk. "

This is the current text for the races.

You could place a really pure-blood empire in the isles though, as its where the separatists hang out, ie Garam´Shar (orcs) and the elves of the Endless Ocean.

You could have one or a few exceptions to the rule, but they should stay exceptions and with a clear statement about their uniqueness...

 

[LRonKnieval]

"This is the current text for the races. "

Is the text from a human written, historical standpoint?
If so, it is entirely concievable that the majority of the territory beyond the fiendlands is unknown to them, especially those that border near other realms. I was looking over the text when I made my suggestion.

My point was thus: Because the races in the fiendlands are mixed, it has been extremely difficult for a purebred race to survive there. Thus the hobgoblins, after years of trying to survive against years of opposition, are now forced to flee into the Kessel or be wiped out. This explains a sudden influx of what esentially would be a new race/threat suddenly appearing in an ongoing campaign.

"You could place a really pure-blood empire in the isles though, as its where the separatists hang out, ie Garam´Shar (orcs) and the elves of the Endless Ocean. "

Most of the pure-blood empires on the isles are already documented. It would be weird to have another suddenly spring up. also that role is already filled by the Garam' Shar, if we are going to add a new race it should fill a new role within the campaign. That said, there is no reason not to apply Imperialus's idea assuming that the Hobgoblins are another race of Orc lead by a newly arrived charismatic leader (perhaps even an Orc Patron)who is now trying to spread his power in the Kessel. (although, that's similar to what the fiends have been attempting for years).


"You could have one or a few exceptions to the rule, but they should stay exceptions and with a clear statement about their uniqueness..."

Thats kind of why I like the idea of the pure-breds being homeless refugees attempting to preserve their lineage in a very mixed world. It creates motivation, reason for conflict, and explains their sudden appearance.

 

[The Burned Man]

"Is the text from a human written, historical standpoint?"

No. Since this is the history of the Mortal civilization of the Last Haven (the Kessel and the Mountains). This was one of the orginal CONCEPTS of the world, ie that the mortals interbred heavily unlike in other worlds.

"If so, it is entirely concievable that the majority of the territory beyond the fiendlands is unknown to them, especially those that border near other realms. I was looking over the text when I made my suggestion."

You´re confusing me here?

"My point was thus: Because the races in the fiendlands are mixed, it has been extremely difficult for a purebred race to survive there. Thus the hobgoblins, after years of trying to survive against years of opposition, are now forced to flee into the Kessel or be wiped out. This explains a sudden influx of what esentially would be a new race/threat suddenly appearing in an ongoing campaign."

The text describes the Kessel. The status of mortal slaves in the Broken Lands hasnt really been touched, except that their propably subjugated to slavery, maltreatment and fiendish experimentation (reths anyone).

"Most of the pure-blood empires on the isles are already documented. It would be weird to have another suddenly spring up. also that role is already filled by the Garam' Shar, if we are going to add a new race it should fill a new role within the campaign. That said, there is no reason not to apply Imperialus's idea assuming that the Hobgoblins are another race of Orc lead by a newly arrived charismatic leader (perhaps even an Orc Patron)who is now trying to spread his power in the Kessel. (although, that's similar to what the fiends have been attempting for years)."

They´d be smashed like bugs by the Patrons. Remember that the mortal societies are not you´re average quasi-medieval peoples of other worlds.

They´ve been fighting continiously for 1600 years with Fiends, the War waxes and wanes but goes on forever. A hob-goblin wouldn´t find the peoples of the mountains that different from themselves (especially when it comes to their Lawful nature, and especially the people of the Forge are in many ways alike, valuing strength whether it be physical or mental).

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Still I have nothing against a hob-goblin principality. I´d just like to adress that it would have to fit into the civilization of the Kessel (as the Leader of the Hobgoblins would have the political position of a prince).

And as I said before even if the Hob-Goblins themselves remain reasonably pure (enough to avoid alterations of their stats), they can still have other peoples living within their realm. Ie they are the militaristic rulers of a "militocracy" (is that the right term, a nation run by the military.

There are only supposed to be seven patrons. Although other powerful beings are possible (look at the Pale Sorcerors).

 

[Imperialus]

look just because a place was human dominated doesn't mean exclusively human. There could have been scattered hobgoblin tribes liveing in the heavally forested southeren reach of the Kessel long before the fiends invaded. In fact it was mentioned in the history of Egran that it was founded on a wild and untamed frontier. It's like England. Just because it is dominated by those of Normen Saxon decent doesn't mean that other peoples like the Scots and Irish haven't been liveing there just as long.

I'm not sure they would make such a good refugee race. After all they are more organized than orcs and just as militaristic. It seems to me that they would stand and fight against the fiends rather than run away.

Anyhow like I said it was just an idea. It doesn't seem to have much support so I won't persue it.

*edit* and I don't want the Hobgoblin leaders to be in any way as powerful as the patrons. I was mostly just looking to them as an excuse to insert some politiking with a very biligerant race into the Kessel. After all there are large numbers of Orcs liveing in the Kessel but they are for the most part leaderless and have integrated quite well into the rest of mortal society. Not so with the Hobgoblins. They have remained defiantly independant even though they pay lip service to the various patrons they refuse to allow themselves to be directly influanced. Basically the only reason anyone tollerates them and doesn't just aggressively settle their principality either wipeing them of the map or forceing them to intigrate as the Orcs did is because they make such damn good soldiers against the fiends.

 

[LRonKnieval]

It would be nice to have a lower level race that has a more of a villification against it than the orcs. I think Imperialus has offered us a very valid and credible option for hobgoblins.

 

[The Burned Man]

I dont mind the addition of the Hobgoblins.

Put it up on the to do list, all I´m offering is suggestions like "you should take this into consideration" etc...

...feel free to make a writeup Imperialus but make it very limited first. Then we can look at the other texts and see how it fits....

there are 21 principalitites so there is place for variation. And my opinions are MY opinions...