A new(ish) magic system needs harsh critiques

Strangely enough, I had an idea like this a some months ago, although I don't remember if I posted it here or at WotC. What I did for casting DCs was start it at 10 or 15 and increased it by 5 for each spell level. So, the casting DCs were like this: DC 10 (0th), DC 15 (1st), DC 20 (2nd), DC 25 (3rd), DC 30 (4th), DC 35 (5th), DC 40 (6th), DC 45 (7th), DC 50 (8th), and DC 55 (9th). In addition, I created some class abilities that helped modify the casting bonus so that very powerful spells (7th+ level) could be pulled off, but would need an investment of time and/or energy to do so. I have more info available on file if you wish to see it.

Edit: I considered but never mentioned in my drafts that the casting roll is the only roll made to cast or counter spells. So, no separate rolls for touch attacks, spell-based ranged attacks, or for overcoming SR. The casting result doubled as the base save DC for the spell.
 
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Not so strange I think. Many people have gotten jaded with the Vancian fire and forget system and look to other systems.

The overall problem however is that the spells themselves are designed with this system in mind and need a lot of work to be dragged screaming & kicking into another magic system.

Not so surprisingly, I think the duration issue has killed this puppy.

My cleric player on the other hand likes the idea of a sorcerer style casting of a limited known divine spells. I think this could be an excellent basis for a distinctive break-away group of worshippers.
 

Not so strange I think. Many people have gotten jaded with the Vancian fire and forget system and look to other systems.

Maybe 'sick of' or 'frustrated' would be better than jaded. There's no logic behind 'fire and forget' and it is too restrictive with what you can and cannot cast. I've always thought that it was silly to memorize a spell and then forget it as soon as you cast it. Not to mention having to memorize a spell more than once to cast it repeatedly. How exactly does one memorize something twice anyway? You either know something or you don't. You can't know something 'twice'. Maybe the wizard would rather give up three castings of magic missile for an extra fireball or web? Maybe he'd rather fly than dimension door? If a warrior wanted to use a dagger instead of a greatsword, a wizard should have similar options. And don't say its an 'apples to oranges' kind of thing. Its not. Its about each class having options appropriate to the situation at hand.

The overall problem however is that the spells themselves are designed with this system in mind and need a lot of work to be dragged screaming & kicking into another magic system.

Not true at all. Check out the Revised Elements of Magic. It is an excellent alternate to the 'fire and forget' system. The premise is much more believable than 'fire and forget' and allows for a greater range of personalization for casters while still keeping the system balanced. Also, many existing D&D spells are converted into the system quite easily--not being 'dragged screaming and kicking' at all.

As for a sorcerer-style cleric, check out the Favored Soul in the Complete Divine. That is probably just what you are looking for, in that regard.
 
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FreeTheSlaves said:
Again, this system does not use spell slots or a given number of spells per day. A limitless capacity of spells in their spellbook would, imho, overpower the mage. Effectively that would be the best of both wizard and sorcerer.

Ah, I see. I didn't know you were going to change spells per day. That makes the reduced caster level for fumbling spells a very different matter. This is an intriguing idea. I do have some concerns though. For one, this could potentially give spellcasters many, many times the # of spells they do now. Those with high ability scores will rarely, if ever, fumble, and would effectively have a limitless supply of spells.

One option you may wish to consider is some kind of "mana" points (not what you think, let me explain). Let's say a caster has a number of "mana" points equal to his caster level + his primary ability bonus (INT for Wizards, CHA for Sorcerers, WIS for Divine casters). Lesser spellcasters such as Bards and Paladins would have a smaller number of points, obviously.

Every time a character casts a spell, have them roll for fatigue, to see whether or not the spell taxed their supply of magical energy. This would could work well as a caster level check, Concentration check, or ability check, whichever you prefer to use for your system. The DC could be 15 + spell level, or some such. If the check fails, the caster loses one mana point. If the check succeeds, no mana point is lost. Once the caster is out of mana, they can continue to cast spells, but if they do, they would become fatigued, then exhausted, then unconcious, etc if they fail their checks. This would put a realistic limit on spellcasting, but would be alot more fun than spells per day, IMHO. It also allows scenarios like those in novels where Mages literally exhaust themselves from casting beyond their limits.


FreeTheSlaves said:
This model is based around a spontaneous caster that uses a spellbook. It, in every way outclasses a sorcerer so to allow sorcerers is to allow a woefully understrength class.

Not necessarily. For example, you could keep the Sorcerer's spells known the same as their spells per day is now (6 of each level + bonus at level 20) and limit the Wizard to preparing a number of spells per day that he can cast now (4 of each level + bonus at level 20). Both classes would be limited to having only these spells available to them. For example, let's say you are a level 1 Wizard with a 16 INT, thus you can prepare 2 1st level spells per day. You pick Magic Missile and Feather Fall, for example. You can then cast either of those spells using your system, but only those spells. But the next day, you could prepare two different spells if you wish. Sorcerers would be stuck with the spells they have chosen at level up, but would have a larger selection than Wizards.

Thus, a Sorcerer would have more spells available to him at a time then a Wizard and doesn't have the disadvantage of a spellbook. The Wizard, while having less spells available to him at a time and having to have a spellbook to prepare from, would have the ability to switch spells on a daily basis, giving him more flexibility. This would, IMHO, retain the distinction between the two classes, and allow Wizards to have endless learning potential without becoming unbalanced. This would also help to keep Divine spellcasters within sane boundaries as well, since they have a huge spell selection available to them for "free."
 

First up, thank you all very much for the feedback. I now have an idea of where to proceed to present an acceptable draft to my players.

Secondly, my arcanist has dropped from sight under a mountain of schoolwork leaving only the cleric. He wants to be just spontaneous so that currently is my lone concern, something easily handled.
 

I actually suggested a very similar system to this to my players. After I freed myself from the duct tape and clawed my way out of the shallow, unmarked grave they buried me alive in, I changed my mind.

Actually, when you get a finished version of this, I'd like to try it out.
 
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I agree with Falling Icicle on principle (but not execution).

I don't necessarily know if his "mana points" proposal is the best way to do things, but the critical failure as a limiting factor isn't really workable IMO. It just lets spellcasters cast too many spells per day, and almost all of them are going to be their highest level ones. I don't know what kind of dungeon crawls you go on, but I don't know if I've ever had a wizard cast 20 spells in a single day, let alone the scores necessary to run out of spells.

The idea is sound, since a wizard who has a lower caster level will want to use his lower level spells, but the numbers are out of whack.

If I were designing it (off the cuff right now, just throwing out the first thing to come to mind), I'd make the DC something like 15 + (2 x spell level) and make the roll a caster level + (primary spellcasting stat mod) roll. Any die roll of the spell's level or lower (1 on a d20 for level 1, 9 on a d20 for level 9) is a critical failure threat, but the spell doesn't necessarily fail. To confirm the failure, I'd make the caster roll again - failure means he loses a caster level (and loses the spell). Success means the spell works normally.

I'd still be afraid of someone getting enough intelligence to never fail his rolls, but unless critical failure comes up extremely often, a wizard can effectively cast whatever spell he wants whenever he wants.
 

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