A new take on metamagic

[Kerrick]

Monte Cook mentioned a different way of doing metamagic in his latest blog, and I think it's good idea. Basically, instead of a spell being adjusted upwards by x levels, you have to burn up x spell levels to cast the metamagicked spell, where x is the level adjustment.

For example: Herne the cleric wants to cast a silent flame strike. Normally this would be a 6th level spell that he would have to prepare in advance, but now he can cast it on the fly as a 5th level spell, simply by sacrificing any spell slot of 1st level or higher. If he wanted to maximize and empower it, he'd have to dump 5 levels of spells - five 1st, a 3rd and a 2nd, or any combination of spell levels adding to 5.

Sorcerers can sacrifice hit points instead of spell levels (they have a d6 in our game); bards can make a Perform check (DC 10 + adjusted spell level), as this simulates a more complicated tune to cast the spell.

Under this new system, metamagic feats would likely need minimum caster levels to balance out their improved utility - all +1 feats (Silent, Still, etc.) would be CL 3rd; +2 feats (Empower) would be CL 5th; +3 feats (Maximize, Widen) would be CL 7th, and +4 (Quicken) CL 9th.

 

[Nifft]

Monte Cook mentioned a different way of doing metamagic in his latest blog, and I think it's good idea. Basically, instead of a spell being adjusted upwards by x levels, you have to burn up x spell levels to cast the metamagicked spell, where x is the level adjustment.

Short answer: bad, because nova.

Long answer: this change would allow more power by increasing the maximum value of resources expended in a single action. It'd encourage the "15 minute work day" even more than it already is encouraged.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Y'know, I've encountered discussions about " the 15 minute work day" from time to time but I've never witnessed it.

For the most part, spellcasters in the campaigns in which I've been a participant either husband their resources wisely or find themselves wishing they had a better weapon than a masterwork dagger.

This is, of course, IME, and (obviously) YMMV.

 

[Nifft]

For the most part, spellcasters in the campaigns in which I've been a participant either husband their resources wisely or find themselves wishing they had a better weapon than a masterwork dagger.

How is this an "or"? It looks more like an "and".

(What are they doing while "husbanding their resources"? Presumably it involves NOT casting spells. If so, this change only causes them to spend more time doing that.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kerrick]

Short answer: bad, because nova.

I assume "nova" means "blowing off all your spells at once"?

Long answer: this change would allow more power by increasing the maximum value of resources expended in a single action. It'd encourage the "15 minute work day" even more than it already is encouraged.

I'm with Danny - I've never seen this "15 minute day" thing, but our DM doesn't pound us with constant encounters - we might go several IG days between fighting things. Sure, it's hard not to blow all your spells at 1st-3rd level, but I'm also implementing 4E's idea of at-will 0-level spells to ameliorate that (you prep the cantrips you want for the day and can cast them without limit). Players who blow through all their spells after that are either dumb or their DM needs to let up on the encounters a bit.

Really, I don't see the difference between this and the existing system - when you get to high levels, you don't use a lot of low-level slots anyway. This makes them more useful and frees up the high-level slots for things you'll actually use, instead of things you might use (i.e., metamagicked spells). I personally have never used metamagic for that exact reason - I much prefer to just use normal spells in their normal slots, rather than figure out what would be a good metamagicked spell to take, and what slot would be good for it, and... ugh. It's resource management taken to extremes, and I've got much better things to do with my time.

 

[Nifft]

I assume "nova" means "blowing off all your spells at once"?

Spells are a resource. "Nova" means the ability to expend significantly more resources than usual in a short time span.

I'm with Danny - I've never seen this "15 minute day" thing

You may have heard about it, though?

Really, I don't see the difference between this and the existing system

Under the existing system, it's impossible to cast an Empowered fireball at 5th level without special equipment or splatbook feats (and even those are subject to per-day usage limits). With this system, it'd be an efficient use of a 6th Sorcerer's spell-slots to cast every one of his fireball spells as an Empowered spell. That's something he shouldn't be able to do until 10th level.

Basically: you're giving away the ability to kill things faster. This means you're giving away a power-up.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kerrick]

You may have heard about it, though?

Yeah, I've seen it used as a common complaint about the 3.5 system.

Under the existing system, it's impossible to cast an Empowered fireball at 5th level without special equipment or splatbook feats (and even those are subject to per-day usage limits). With this system, it'd be an efficient use of a 6th Sorcerer's spell-slots to cast every one of his fireball spells as an Empowered spell. That's something he shouldn't be able to do until 10th level.

Mm, I see your point. Granted, he only gets three of them, but tossing off three 8d6 fireballs instead of 6d6 is a decent power-up (and he'd still have 5 spell levels to play with afterward). Even wizards gaining a single 7d6 fireball vs. 5d6 is pretty good, though they have far fewer levels to give up for it (and they'd probably need them, too).

Maybe have a daily limit? 3 + spellcasting mod, with feats to increase it?

 

[Nifft]

Mm, I see your point. Granted, he only gets three of them, but tossing off three 8d6 fireballs instead of 6d6 is a decent power-up (and he'd still have 5 spell levels to play with afterward).

The typical Sorcerer will have a bonus 3rd level slot, so it'd be four of them, and they'd deal 9d6 (6 + 3 = 9).

But that 6th level Sorcerer would have enough left over 1st and 2nd level slots to additionally Quicken two of those fireballs. So possibly he'd be dealing 18d6 per round, which he shouldn't be able to do.

But even that isn't all that bad. It's just damage, after all.

Worse is a 5th Wizard casting an Extended rope trick without wasting one of his valuable 3rd level slots. Why is this worse? Because the over-eight-hour rope trick is the earliest trick used by many PCs to stop and rest. This is the other half of the "15 minute work day" -- PCs who not only can blow their wad, they can also stop & rest at will. This allows them to have one fight per day, but it's one fight they are very likely to win, because they are able to expend all of their daily resources on it.

Just as bad is a 7th level Cleric using up all his low-level slots to cast Persistent divine power, divine favor, and maybe one other buff of his choice.

You get the idea.

- - -

In Psionics, there's a thing called the meta-cap. It states: you cannot spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level. It means: you can flexibly apply your meta-psionic feats, your extra power points to augment a power, or whatever, BUT you are limited in the total amount of this resource you can expend. If you want the maximum augmentation (which may increase damage and DC), you cannot also buy meta-psionic effects (like increased area, increased range, quicken, repeat, etc.).

In Psionic terms, this "magic variant" is the equivalent of saying: screw the meta-cap, spend whatever you want. This is obviously broken -- and as evidence, I'd point to the WotC Psionics board, where every day some new DM wanders in and rants about how broken Psionics are -- until he learns about the meta-cap and is chastised to read the rules more carefully.

Cheers, -- N

 

[CleverNickName]

I'm with Nifft on this one; wizards and sorcerers would be tempted to tank all of their spells inside of 1 encounter, then use a crossbow for an hour or two until they find a place to camp.

It's an interesting idea, though.

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was an option for using Constitution points to power Metamagic spells...basically the character could cast a metamagic spell by burning 1 point of Con for every spell level increased (1 for silent, 4 for quickened, and so forth). Lost Con could not be healed magically, but returned at the rate of 1 point per hour.

Unfortunately, this also encouraged "15 minute workday" behavior. Except it was now the "four-hour nap after every battle."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How is this an "or"? It looks more like an "and".

(What are they doing while "husbanding their resources"? Presumably it involves NOT casting spells. If so, this change only causes them to spend more time doing that.)

Essentially, our parties don't base when we camp/retreat solely upon whether the casters have blown through everything they've got or not. Often, our casters still have some firepower left at the end of the day.

Casters who keep slinging fireballs when the mop-up could be done with sweat and steel will find themselves getting asked to contribute to the party efforts by doing more than hiding later on...sometimes including swinging a big stick while protecting someone else.

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was an option for using Constitution points to power Metamagic spells...basically the character could cast a metamagic spell by burning 1 point of Con for every spell level increased (1 for silent, 4 for quickened, and so forth). Lost Con could not be healed magically, but returned at the rate of 1 point per hour.

Wasn't this part of the Vitality system in Unearthed Arcana?