A new take on metamagic

I'd be willing to playtest this idea as a DM or as a player, but I think a couple of the details are bad ideas. Prep casters should have to prep their "metamagic fuel slots" ahead of time as usual and spontaneous casters should NOT be allowed to substitute hp or skill checks for spell slots.

TS
 

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CleverNickName said:
I can't remember where I saw it, but there was an option for using Constitution points to power Metamagic spells...basically the character could cast a metamagic spell by burning 1 point of Con for every spell level increased (1 for silent, 4 for quickened, and so forth). Lost Con could not be healed magically, but returned at the rate of 1 point per hour.
The Midnight setting had something vaguely like this. Casting could cost Con; this Con damage couldn't be healed; it all came back overnight.

Cheers, -- N
 
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The typical Sorcerer will have a bonus 3rd level slot, so it'd be four of them, and they'd deal 9d6 (6 + 3 = 9).
Oops.

But that 6th level Sorcerer would have enough left over 1st and 2nd level slots to additionally Quicken two of those fireballs. So possibly he'd be dealing 18d6 per round, which he shouldn't be able to do.
No he wouldn't, because Quicken has a CL 9 requirement.

Worse is a 5th Wizard casting an Extended rope trick without wasting one of his valuable 3rd level slots. Why is this worse? Because the over-eight-hour rope trick is the earliest trick used by many PCs to stop and rest. This is the other half of the "15 minute work day" -- PCs who not only can blow their wad, they can also stop & rest at will. This allows them to have one fight per day, but it's one fight they are very likely to win, because they are able to expend all of their daily resources on it.
The easy way to fix that is to drop the duration on rope trick (though I must say, we've never used that spell at all, let alone for a party hideout). I think the intent of that spell was to provide a short-term place to hide, not a long-term campsite - that's the way I'd interpret it, anyway, since the "real" camping spells (Leomund's tiny hut/shelter) are 3rd level and up.

Just as bad is a 7th level Cleric using up all his low-level slots to cast Persistent divine power, divine favor, and maybe one other buff of his choice.

You get the idea.
Yeah. Let's not bring in non-core material for the time being, though - I want to balance this against the core rules, not stuff from the Book of Exalted Brokenness.

In Psionics, there's a thing called the meta-cap. It states: you cannot spend more power points on a single power than your manifester level.
I'm not too familiar with psionics, but I've heard of the metacap. Is there a way to apply that to magic? I thought about suggesting you couldn't cast any spell whose level + modifier is greater than your caster level, but that still allows sorcerers to blow off empowered fireballs.

I'd be willing to playtest this idea as a DM or as a player, but I think a couple of the details are bad ideas. Prep casters should have to prep their "metamagic fuel slots" ahead of time as usual and spontaneous casters should NOT be allowed to substitute hp or skill checks for spell slots.
Prepping "fuel slots" is basically the same as prepping metamagicked spells - fiddly and time intensive. Do they still get to use those slots if they're not used for metamagic? I'd appreciate some testing, though, if you're willing.

I agree, sorcerers dumping hit points is a bad idea, now that Nifft has pointed out the flaws in my idea.
 

Kerrick said:
No he wouldn't, because Quicken has a CL 9 requirement.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell

Show me where?

Kerrick said:
I'm not too familiar with psionics, but I've heard of the metacap. Is there a way to apply that to magic? I thought about suggesting you couldn't cast any spell whose level + modifier is greater than your caster level, but that still allows sorcerers to blow off empowered fireballs.
By default, it's already applied to magic: you can't cast a meta-magic'd spell that's effectively higher level than the highest level regular spell you can cast.

Cheers, -- N
 

Kerrick said:
Prepping "fuel slots" is basically the same as prepping metamagicked spells - fiddly and time intensive. Do they still get to use those slots if they're not used for metamagic? I'd appreciate some testing, though, if you're willing.
My bad, I meant that I'd be hypothetically willing to playtest this idea. But as I am not DMing at the moment, and not likely to anytime soon, it is unlikely to happen. Depending on how much I like 4e, I may never DM 3e again.

But if I were to playtest it, I would not allow prepped "fuel slots" to be used for actual spells. Not because I think doing so would be broken (though it might be), but because I've never used such a rule when using metamagic RAW.

TS
 

This is much the same as the Ultimate Magus prestige class, except that severely limits the metamagic feats you can apply, and you can only apply one feat at a time. And you lose spell progression.
 

Show me where?
From the first post:

Under this new system, metamagic feats would likely need minimum caster levels to balance out their improved utility - all +1 feats (Silent, Still, etc.) would be CL 3rd; +2 feats (Empower) would be CL 5th; +3 feats (Maximize, Widen) would be CL 7th, and +4 (Quicken) CL 9th.

By default, it's already applied to magic: you can't cast a meta-magic'd spell that's effectively higher level than the highest level regular spell you can cast.
True. I really wonder if Monte thought this idea through before he mentioned it...

My bad, I meant that I'd be hypothetically willing to playtest this idea. But as I am not DMing at the moment, and not likely to anytime soon, it is unlikely to happen. Depending on how much I like 4e, I may never DM 3e again.
Ah well. It looks like this thing's going to die a quiet death anyway. :(

But if I were to playtest it, I would not allow prepped "fuel slots" to be used for actual spells. Not because I think doing so would be broken (though it might be), but because I've never used such a rule when using metamagic RAW.
So effectively, you'd have to just keep a number of slots open (no prepped spells) for metamagic. That isn't bad, really, because if you don't need them, you could just take some time to prep spells in them later in the day. If you do it that way, casters would have to balance having spells with being able to use metamagic. Unfortunately, spontaneous casters' slots are always empty until used, so we still run into the problem of the sorcerer blowing off multiple empowered fireballs.

This is much the same as the Ultimate Magus prestige class, except that severely limits the metamagic feats you can apply, and you can only apply one feat at a time. And you lose spell progression.
Never heard of it. Is it from Complete Arcane?
 

Kerrick said:
From the first post:

Under this new system, metamagic feats would likely need minimum caster levels to balance out their improved utility - all +1 feats (Silent, Still, etc.) would be CL 3rd; +2 feats (Empower) would be CL 5th; +3 feats (Maximize, Widen) would be CL 7th, and +4 (Quicken) CL 9th.
D'oh! Foolish me, forgetting half the content of the OP. Thanks. :)

Still, all it does is ensure Clerics suddenly go from "gee, I have a BAB of +6" at level 8 to "ZOMG I AM GODZILLA" at level 9. Quicken + righteous might at the same level, oooooooh boy.

Cheers, -- N
 


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