A new Take on Turn Undead

[Psychic Warrior]

Turning Undead is one of those 'all or nothing' abilities that has always bugged me. So, as always, I want to tinker with it and make it more interesting. Here is my initial idea

Cleric makes Turn check as normal (d20+Cha bonus) but uses this slightly modified table to determine success

0 or lower - Cleric's Level - 8
1-2 - Cleric's Level - 6
3-4 - Cleric's Level - 4
5-6 - Cleric's Level - 2
7-8 - Cleric's Level
9-10 - Cleric's Level + 2
11-12 - Cleric's Level + 4
13-14 - Cleric's Level + 6
15-16 - Cleric's Level + 8
17-18 - Cleric's Level + 10

and so on with no maximum (if you have a 45 Cha you can affect a lot of undead!). This tells you if you can affect the undead in question. To determine the damage to the creature the cleric rolls 1d12 + Cleric Level + Cha bonus MINUS the HD of the undead creature in question. The result is how many d6's of positive energy damage the cleric inflicts on the undead. This effect takes the form of a 30' diameter burst centered on the cleric.

For example Fulmar (Cleric 10 with Cha 13) attempts to turn a Sword of Kyuss (14HD). He rolls a turning check of 12 which means he can affect undead up to 14HD. He then rolls 1d12+10+1 for a total of 23 (his maximum)! 23-14 (the HD of the Sword of Kyuss) means the undead takes 9d6 of positive energy damage. SR and DR do not apply to this damage of course. Against weaker undead (ie 6HD Spawn of Kyuss) Fulamr could be expected to inflict 17d6 damage on them with the same result (ie a near automatic kill)

Each undead is affected the same (ie - you make one turning attempt and one turning damage roll and it is applied to all undead within the burst effect) and an undead can only be affected by a cleric's turning damage once in a 24 hour period (this assumes at least 1d6 of damage is done - if the undead in question took no damage from the turning attempt the cleric may retry as normal).

Comments? Questions?

 

[Arkhandus]

It seems overpowered to me, particularly since it has no limit on number of undead affected and because it can so easily deal so many dice worth of damage. Perhaps lower the turning damage roll to 1d6 + cleric level + Charisma modifier? Or even 1d4 base instead of 1d6? Considering that it has no limit on number of undead affected, only a limit on how powerful an undead it can affect....

 

[jeffh]

While the all-or-nothing nature of turning is one problem with it, the other is its relative complexity - it's one of very few core 3E mechanics, and certainly the most commonly-used one, that both requires a table lookup and takes multiple rolls to resolve. (The other ones are all individual spells and specific skill uses.) It seems to me you've, if anything, compounded that problem.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

How about the initial check telling you how many HD of undead you can affect total and limit the turning damage to 1d6+level+Cha? So in the example Fulmar could affect the one 14HD Sword of Kyuss or be forced to turn the 3 6HD Spawn of Kyuss that are closer to him?

 

[Sir Brennen]

I say dump the initial check altogether - if facing a fairly powerful undead, it's still an all-or-nothing mechanic. In fact, you've increased the odds of a "nothing" result for powerful undead, since a Cleric without a great CHA bonus and a low roll on his d12 still might not do any damage once HD are subtracted, even if he made the initial check.

And the second roll, the damage calculation, is another strange, non-standard mechanic just like the original level check which you've modified. I mean, what other spell or special ability has it's damage dice randomly determined, and then modified by the target's HD? Just go with a saving throw if you want damage to be reduced. (Also, how would Turn Resistance play into your system? Also subtracted from the d12 + Level + Cha number?)

I use a "Turning causes HP Damage" variant in my own campaign. High level it boils down to this:

Turning inflicts damage equal to 1d8 * [3/4 cleric level + 1] (perhaps easier to remember as the cleric's BAB +1) to all undead within a 20' radius circle centered on the cleric. Any undead in this area are allowed a Will save for half damage against a DC of [10 + cleric level + Cha modifier].

There's quite a few related changes stemming from this, but the basics are a lot simpler, I think.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

While the all-or-nothing nature of turning is one problem with it, the other is its relative complexity - it's one of very few core 3E mechanics, and certainly the most commonly-used one, that both requires a table lookup and takes multiple rolls to resolve. (The other ones are all individual spells and specific skill uses.) It seems to me you've, if anything, compounded that problem.

Seconded. I myself am a fan of the turning variant in CD: 1d6/level damage to undead within 30 ft. with a Will save for half damage (10+cleric level+Cha). Removes the all-or-nothing problem, makes turning nice and simple and makes turning viable against high CR monster-type undead.