A new Tier System for 5E

[DEFCON 1]

There have been numerous threads here for quite a while about the difficulties and solutions for D&D's starter set / Red Box problem and its Epic Tier problem. Neither end of the game's spectrum has been taken care of as well as its proponents think they should be. The starter sets have not done enough to create an instant entryway into the game that is actually replayable (and not just a fire and forget game that expect you to move on immediately to the 'real' version), and the Epic Tier has not had nearly enough support and true variation and innovation to make it seem a viable addition to the game, plus I've heard it said from some who've played it that the entire Tier might be just a bit too long for what it wants to accomplish.

Whether any of this is true or not is obviously up for debate (and goodness knows we've been having those debates for years now.) But I decided to create my own possible solution for this situation and offer it up here, mainly curious just to hear other people's opinions on the matter. I'm taking certain things that have already happened into account, as well as using/adapting ideas that have already been mentioned in various Mearls/Cook/Rule of 3 columns (as they might be indicative of directions they seem to be going.)

Bear in mind I do not deign to believe in any way that this is the best solution... it's just one I've come up with and I'm wondering how people like it. (Also bear in mind that its quite possible that its similar to other ideas that have been offered up before and I make no claim that this is at all original or that I wasn't influenced by threads of this type in the past. I probably easily was.)

***

So here's what I'm looking to accomplish: a new Tier system that helps solve the issues of a replayable starter game, a more concrete and important high-level game, as well as bring in the changeable complexity module system that seems to be the direction the game is leaning towards.

For my purposes, the 3 tiers are as follows:

Adventurer Tier: 1-5
Heroic Tier: 6-15
Epic Tier: 16-20

The game itself would be packaged in two different ways.

The first way recreates the old B-E-C-M-I formula by making three separate 'boxed sets' of the three tiers-- the Adventurer Tier boxed set, the Heroic Tier boxed set, and the Epic Tier boxed set. Each of these tier boxes are complete versions of the game for that particular tier. There's one booklet for Players which cover character generation, a second for DMs covering the rules and how to run the game, and a third covering monsters. Everything you need to run a game at that tier is at your disposal, with each tier as you went higher including more complex rules and more complex systems so as to make the higher tiers actually somewhat different than the ones below it.

So for instance... the Adventurer Tier boxed set is your Starter Set, and is identified as such. The box is set up and written for new players to allow them to create characters and run them through 5 levels worth of adventures. All the extras that the PF Starter Set has could be included (character/monster tokens, reusable gridded poster map, character sheets). The game rules would include everything at the foundation of whatever the game's mechanics are. Maybe Skills are included in Adventurer Tier or maybe not; maybe Feats are or are not included in Adventurer Tier. And for character generation, maybe you go with the four standard base classes (F/C/R/W)... or maybe instead you don't select a 'class', but instead select one of six roles (melee defender, ranged controller, melee or ranged striker, melee or ranged leader), and a power source (Martial, Divine, Arcane) in addition to selecting a race and background. This way you can have somewhat standardized Adventurer Tier powers across the same role and/or across the same power source (which many people have said they were in favor of in order to cut down on power bloat). You adventure in this way for five levels of game. And this then leads you to...

...the Heroic Tier boxed set, where these role/power source combinations can get codified. What would in 4E be called your Paragon Path, here at 6th level in Heroic Tier you select a Class based upon the role/power source combination you chose in Adventurer. Selecting a Class gives you Class Features (which you wouldn't ordinarily have in Adventurer Tier.) over and above the additional powers you would acquire as you level. So for instance, if you had selected melee striker / martial source... you could select the Rogue class and get the abilities and features for being a rogue (or in future supplements, perhaps the Slayer class or the Duelist class becomes available). In any event... you went through 5 levels as a basic Adventurer to now allow you to select and advance through 10 levels of a Heroic Class. And then once you get through level 15...

...you move onto the Epic Tier boxed set. 5 final levels of following your Epic Destiny towards whatever awaits you. This tier box would include even more advanced mechanics for character advancement, monster advancement, epic equipment, and the like. Really make these five levels as advanced over the Heroic tier and Adventurer tier as possible to really make it stand out. And by only doing five levels, DMs can really focus their PCs stories through the accomplishing of their Destinies until the retire at level 20.

And the second way the game is packaged? Rather than dividing info up into 3 Tiers... you do the standard division of 3 separate books that include all 3 tiers in them. So your Player's Handbook covers character generation and advancement from levels 1-20, your Dungeon Master's Guide covers all the rules and complexity modules from 1-20, and your Monster Manual covers all the monsters from 1-20. What this does is that it allows more experienced gamers who fully expect to play all 3 tiers to buy all the info they need in a single book (or three books, in the case of a DM). But because the info in the three hardcover book is exactly the same as the info in the three tiered boxed sets (and god willing, costs the same to buy all three hardcover books as it is to buy the three boxed sets)... you don't have to make players buy the same information more than once.

You get to choose... you can either buy the information by Tier and get that tier's PC, DM, and monster info all together in one place, or you buy the info by book and get the entire 1-20 levels of info for your job together.

***

This was long and kind of convoluted I know... and I'm sure certain parts don't work as well as other parts do... but it would certainly solve some problems that the game has had. What do you think?

 

[Infiniti2000]

I was thinking many people wanted MORE levels, not less. The first tier is awfully short. I know a lot of people that like to start off at 3rd level or so, and that would be a crimp in this system. Also, grammatically-speaking, it should be Adventurous Tier and, well, that just sounds wrong.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I was thinking many people wanted MORE levels, not less. The first tier is awfully short.

That is true... but the purpose was to make an entire tier that would be included in a Starter Set so that you could replay the Tier again and again if you never wanted to move on. That way you wouldn't have to buy boxed sets of Heroic Tier Part 1 Levels 1-5 and Heroic Tier Part 2 Levels 6-10 or some such nonsense. One Starter Set encompasses one Tier of play.

And as far as starting at Level 3... I suspect that would mainly be done by players who already know enough about D&D to WANT to start more powerful... and in that regard they would probably be buying the hardcover books rather than the boxed sets.

But if indeed its true that players want more levels not less... its easy enough to change my tiers a bit and make four boxed sets:

Adventurer 1-5
Heroic 6-15
Paragon 16-25
Epic 26-30

Those kind of details are extremely fungible.

 

[RangerWickett]

If the game did adopt this system, and players wanted to start out powerful, it'd be easy to say "We're starting at Heroic Tier."

The Heroic Tier rulebook would list a big chunk of stuff heroic PCs get (because they start at 6th level), and give lots of options for giving your character his own schtick.

I'd imagine Adventurer Tier would have fairly basic classes, without a ton of powers, making it ideal as a starter.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Adventurer 1-5
Heroic 6-15
Paragon 16-25
Epic 26-30

This model appeals to me. I like the idea of an intro boxed set, and I also like that epics is shorter, because by the time you hit epic, I feel like the story should be moving a lot faster.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

But if indeed its true that players want more levels not less... its easy enough to change my tiers a bit and make four boxed sets:

Adventurer 1-5
Heroic 6-15
Paragon 16-25
Epic 26-30

Those kind of details are extremely fungible.

That is the breakdown I suggested last time I commented the level pacing (albeit with slightly different tier names). So naturally, I like the revised version. Seriously, I do think that the pacing expressed there is closer to the average of how people see it.

This would be especially true if levels 1-5 are allowed to have some grit, similar to earlier versions, while the "Heroic" tier would start characters off about as competent as 1st level 4E characters. Heroic and Paragon are pretty well balanced now. So essentially keep the character they have now, but shift them up 5 levels, to at once shorten Epic to something more manageable and open up space for the grit at start.

The "Adventurer" tier becomes the 5E versions of 3E E6, and should include optional rules for continuing to play in that manner without picking up the supplements. This makes it a true stand-alone game. Accordingly, it should have druids, bards, etc, not just the big four (or whatever the equivalent of those classes is in 5E terms--e.g. roles, power sources, etc.).

Finally, I had advocated from the first hint of the 4E tiers that the game be packaged and sold by tiers, instead of by cross sections of classes and monsters. I think they didn't do that because they knew that Epic wouldn't sell. Well, I think in the 4 tier breakdown, you can sell the first two tiers as viable stand-alone games, and then package the last two together in high level supplements. Paragon there has enough attraction to bring Epic along with it. And after all, those games don't have to repeat all the DMG-type advice, merely supplement it. Boxed sets are too expensive to risk on the latter two tiers.

The one big problem, of course, is the repackage idea for those that want it. Here is a place where they take a chance and make that option officially available via the 5E CB. Then they announce from the beginning that the printed version of the full game, PHB, DMG, and MM will be coming out at launch year +3 or +4. These will be the best of the material in the CB, errata handled, etc.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The "Adventurer" tier becomes the 5E versions of 3E E6, and should include optional rules for continuing to play in that manner without picking up the supplements. This makes it a true stand-alone game. Accordingly, it should have druids, bards, etc, not just the big four (or whatever the equivalent of those classes is in 5E terms--e.g. roles, power sources, etc.).

The E6 idea was my thought as well. Enough levels to last a while and give you a sense of actual advancement... but not so many that it becomes too cumbersome for a starter set. 5 levels works out well.

As far as the druid/bard idea... that was my reasoning for putting forth the idea of not necessarily having 'classes' in Adventurer tier, but rather selecting role and power source. This gives you a couple advantages. First, you can cut down on the number of powers needed in Adventurer Tier by having ones that cut across ALL roles of a particular source, or ALL sources of a particular role. So for instance Power Strike might be a Level 1 Martial Encounter power any Martial role can take (martial defender, martial ranged striker, martial melee leader etc.) Or Pinning Strike might be a Ranged Controller At-Will power that any power source can take (and each power source can fluff it in whatever manner makes sense).

Second, by opening it up that way and not going the Fallen Lands route of the standard Fighter / Cleric / Rogue / Wizard... you aren't forcing a particular role or a particular power source on someone. If you wanted to be a Divine character, you'd either have to play the cleric or wait for a supplement to come out that had other divine options in it. Because that Adventurer Tier box set wouldn't be able to include all of them without making the set too darn big.

Finally, I had advocated from the first hint of the 4E tiers that the game be packaged and sold by tiers, instead of by cross sections of classes and monsters. I think they didn't do that because they knew that Epic wouldn't sell. Well, I think in the 4 tier breakdown, you can sell the first two tiers as viable stand-alone games, and then package the last two together in high level supplements.

This way my reasoning for removing the Paragon Tier and going straight from Heroic to Epic at 16, ending at 20. As many current Epic players have discovered... Levels 21-30 have just so many crazy things that are so difficult to balance that it's no wonder that Epic is more difficult to sell to people. I know I sometimes feel overwhelmed by my players and they're only in the middle of Paragon currently. That would be even more true if they had to buy Epic Tier over and above 10 levels of Paragon Tier. By removing those last 10 levels and dropping Epic to 16-20... you're only asking players to buy one more smaller level set following the purchase of Heroic... which is more likely to get players to impulsively do so than the 15 levels of a combined Paragon/Epic.

A player receives the Starter Set as a gift and learns to play. If he likes it, he'll buy Heroic to advance the characters even further than he originally thought. Then, after playing the game at Heroic for another 6 months to a year and finally reaches level 15... he then sees the last box set to pick up is only 5 levels of Epic material, and can decide if he wants to take the plunge and finish the campaign off. That to me is a much more likely and sellable scenario to people than having that same player finish Heroic and then seeing a box that includes 15 more levels to play. I suspect that player would be more likely just not bother buying it at all at that point and go back instead to playing Adventurer and Heroic Tier again (considering those 15 levels of Paragon/Epic would encompass a full doubling of campaign time after that point.

By making that third set Epic-only from 16-20 (rather than Paragon-Epic from 16-30)... you have more space in the box to include more stuff and more mechanics and more complexity to make the 5 levels of Epic truly different than Heroic and Adventurer (which granted is really important if you want to make Epic worth buying since its only 5 levels of material-- you'd want extensive and really cool material in it.) You'd have a much harder time of trying to do two different Tiers of complexity in a single box if you went up to 30 I think. But that's just me.

 

[S'mon]

5-10-10-5 looks good to me, and should play a lot like BECM's 3-11-11-11, because the way BECM XP worked (flat number after 9th) the final 11 levels went by much faster than the preceding ones.

5-10-5 looks cramped to me, and threatens a return to 3e's excess power gradient. I like having Heroic & Paragon as distinct tiers, I haven't run Paragon yet but I am really looking forward to it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I suggested this before, but I will again.

6 box sets each 3 months apart.

Level 1-5 Beginer

Level 6-10 Adventurer

Level 11-15 Legendary

level 16-20 Paragon

Level 21-25 Epic

level 26-30 Acended

in order to make it easier to make classes, basic class only get powers level 1-12, themes give you powers from 6-18, legendary paths give powers from 11-22, epic destinies are only 5 levels...becuse acended is playing post destiny...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Finally, I had advocated from the first hint of the 4E tiers that the game be packaged and sold by tiers, instead of by cross sections of classes and monsters. I think they didn't do that because they knew that Epic wouldn't sell. Well, I think in the 4 tier breakdown, you can sell the first two tiers as viable stand-alone games, and then package the last two together in high level supplements. Paragon there has enough attraction to bring Epic along with it. And after all, those games don't have to repeat all the DMG-type advice, merely supplement it. Boxed sets are too expensive to risk on the latter two tiers.

Epic doesn't sell well because its only epic in name and not execution. Its only the same monster types with higher math rather than offering anything palpably new.

I think a 5E should go with the 'Tiered' Box Set approach but I'd simply advocate the following:

- ADVENTURER Tier: Levels 1-10
The heroes are adventurers...

- CONQUEROR Tier: Levels 11-20
The heroes are conquerors...new rules include running your own stronghold, mass combat rules.

- IMMORTAL Tier: Levels 21-30
The heroes are immortals...new rules include garnering worship, creating your own religions.

Across the board condense monster levels down by about 33% (ie. the Tarrasque would be Level 20 not 30).

Treat the Monster Sections of each book like mini-adventures. So the ADVENTURER Tier might have the following themes:

1. Goblin Caves
2. Wererat Infested Sewers
3. Human Bandit Hideout
4. Orc Fortress
5. Haunted Ruins
6. Evil Temple
7. Dragon's Lair
8. Vampire Crypt
9. Troll Den
10. Wizard's Tower

Each theme covers maybe a dozen enemies (for instance you might have 6-7 goblin statblocks for the Goblin Caves, but you would also have various monsters likely to feature there).