A New Twist on Cleric Spellcasting

Quickbeam

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A few thoughts about the relevant spellcasting attribute for Clerics:

Our group has begun to kick around the idea of making their primary attribute for spellcasting vary by deity. No matter what, we'd make WISDOM important to clerics as a measure of commitment to their faith. Without a high WISDOM, the cleric would lack the necessary perception or devotion to clearly connect fully with the deity. But priests of Kord, Nerull, Boccob, Pelor, and Olidimarra would have hugely different personalities and behavior patterns, and I could see the power of their spells emanating from very different attributes. Anyone else toyed with this concept -- and in general whaddya think?
 

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I am hughly in favour of some kind of specialty priest for each and every deity... though I haven't sat down and designed them yet...

[edit] I really liked the use of them in 2e... but then they disappeared.
 
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This is the kind of stuff I was talking about... and I know this stuff was all broken by the way, but I like the idea of every priesthood being different.

Mystra
Portfolio: Magic
Ability Requirements: Intelligence 14, Wisdom 12
Prime Requisite: Intelligence, Wisdom
Alignment: Neutral Good

Mystra is the goddess of magic, which makes her one of the most powerful deities in the Realms. Known also as the Lady of Mysteries, she is said to have taught the first spell caster of the Realms, and to have enabled many of the races to use magic.
During the Time of Troubles Mystra was destroyed and replaced by a mortal named Midnight who took the mantle of goddesshood and the goddess's portfolio. At this time Mystra's stated alignment shifted from lawful neutral, maintaining the balance in use of magic, to neutral good, reflecting the mortal's attitudes towards the uses and purpose of magic.
In the field, all priests of Mystra wear armor, and bear the symbol of Mystra on their shields as a display of their faith. They can use all bludgeoning weapons and the same magical items allowed by both clerics and wizards, except wizard scrolls.
The standard spell selection for priest of Mystra consist of the following spheres: major access to All, Astral, Charm, Combat, Creation, Divination, Elemental, Guardian, Healing, Necromantic, Protection, Summoning, Travelers, and Wards. Minor access is granted to the spheres of Animal, Law, Plant, Sun, Thought, and Weather.

Priests of Mystra receive 190 character points to spend on skills and abilities from the following list. Skills cost 3 to 15 points. Any unspent points can be used to acquire nonweapon proficiencies or saved for use during the game. The standard priest of Mystra spends his character points to acquire the abilities of detect magic, followers, magic stability, saving throw bonus, spellcraft, turn undead, and access to spheres.

Access to spheres: The standard spell selection cost 151 character points or he can purchase spheres individually just as clerics do (see page 57 of the Skills and Powers book).
Detect magic (5): Once per day the priest can detect magic, as the spell of the same name.
Followers (5/10): By purchasing this skill, a priest can gain followers as described in the Players Handbook if he establishes a stronghold and is at least 8th level. If this is purchased as a 10-point ability, the priest can attract followers whenever he establishes a stronghold, regardless of level. Refer to the priest section of the Players Handbook for more details on followers.
Hit point bonus (10): Priests with this ability use 1d10 to determine their hit points rather than 1d8.
Magic stability (5): Priest of Mystra functions normally in both magic-dead and wild magic areas.
Saving throw bonus (10): Priest of Mystra have a +2 bonus to their saving throws against any sort of magic.
Spellcraft proficiency (3): The priest has the spellcraft proficiency initially.
Turn undead (10): The priest is granted power over undead, such as zombies, skeletons, vampires, and Liches. The priest can drive away these creatures, and as they advance in faith and experience levels, they can destroy some forms of undead. The chart for turning undead can be found in the Players Handbook on page 103, and in the Skills and Powers book on page 58.
Warrior-priest (10): Priests who select this ability use the warrior Strength and Constitution bonuses for exceptional scores. For example, a priest could have an 18/30 Strength, and he could gain bonus hit points for having a Constitution score greater than 16.
Weapon specialization (15): The priest can specialize in a particular weapon. The character point cost must be met in addition.
Wizardly priest (10): The priest gains access to one school of wizard spells and can cast them as if they were clerical spells. The priest must continue to observe the number of various level spells they can cast each day.
 

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. I just can't see a true clerical devotee to Olidimarra or Kord needing to possess a very high WISDOM to be an effective priest. I realize this massively tweaks game mechanics, but it satisfies a problem at the same time.
 

You can achieve something very close (but not quite) to what you are looking for with Prestige Classes.

Each religion would have its own special religious orders, and for each one teh entry requirement woudl include a higher than average stat in the area that was appropriate.

The gentle god of peace might require Charisma, for example, and have interesting restrictions about combat, while having extra healing abilities, perhaps. In addition, some Charisma-based ability would be appropriate.
 

Artoomis said:
You can achieve something very close (but not quite) to what you are looking for with Prestige Classes.

I also think you can get a good feel for this using PrCs.

Plus, I don't think it should be required that you be strong to be a cleric of Kord, for ex. Besides the obvious "gods work in mysterious ways", it can be something the cleric strongly believes in (might makes right, maybe) that led him to serve the God of Strength. Or maybe he wants to become strong but isn't yet.

Sure, most servants of a "stat" god will tend to have a high score in that particular area. But that doesn't mean it should be necessary, per se.

That's why PrCs would work really well here.

Oh, and I never cared much for 2e specialty priests, myself. The cleric was already a potent class, SPs just made them more so. Too much so, IMO. Waaaaayyyyy too much so. ;)

Now, the idea of 2e specialty priests was good. I just didn't like the "munchkin's dream" that some of them became. Maintain reasonable balance and you've got something.
 

Artoomis & Corwin:
Thanks for the suggestion. I don't disagree that a cleric of Kord wouldn't necessarily need a high STR, but it makes some sense that he/she be combat capable IMO. Similarly, a priest whose domains include Chaos, Luck or Trickery wouldn't seem to require a high level of WIS to be an appropriate vessel of that deity.

Nonetheless, I see the problems with allowing a required attribute for all clerics, and appreciate suggestions for working in a secondary attribute.
 

IMO, I think that all clerics need a high wisdom. Wisdom is the attribute that represents the kind of knowledge related to the teachings of a deity and ability to teach other followers these teachings. And that is after all, the purpose of the cleric. Remember, not all followers of a deity have to be clerics, and nothing ever said clerics had to be the majority. I would see a large number of fighters and barbarians who spread the teaching of Kord through their actions, not through their knowledge of the deity; but these men and women would not be clerics persay.
 

From an in-game perspective, I tend to view Wis as being simply a "force of will" stat. It affects divine spellcasting because that's how divine spellcasting works -- it requires someone with enough strength of will to control and direct the spell energy. What actual in-game knowledge, common sense or experience a character has would be affected by lots of other things besides their Wis score, so much so that I'd be inclined to say that Wis has almost nothing to do with it at all.

From this perspective, you don't need Wis to be an effective priest, as such. The village adept with Wis 14 may not be able to cast raise dead, but he/she could know everything there is to know about dogma, faith, rituals, and so on. They could be a very effective representative of the faith, even if they can't lay waste to hordes of undead monsters. Just because the cleric class is designed around dungeoneering doesn't mean that priests everywhere all do the same.

A cleric of Olli or Kord, similarly, might not have as high Wis as a cleric of Pelor (say), but they could still be an effective priest.
 
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Some weeks ago Crothian and I developed a new core class: the priest. With that class -very close to the standard cleric- you can actually create different worshippers more unique than specialty priests: no cleric will look like another one even if they share the same faith! It is based on domains that not only grant a new set of spells available, but even new powers (feats,abilities,skills,...)

The zip file (20k) contains the pdf of the rules. We also decided that just few gods are actuallt concerned about turning/commanding undead, so at the end there's a feat that everyone who has faith in gods can use to keep at bay undead.

Steven McRownt
 

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